Friday, February 28, 2014

Bible Study Chat #26

Job 5:1–27 (NIV)
“Call if you will, but who will answer you?
To which of the holy ones will you turn?
2 Resentment kills a fool,
and envy slays the simple.
3 I myself have seen a fool taking root,
but suddenly his house was cursed.
4 His children are far from safety,
crushed in court without a defender.
5 The hungry consume his harvest,
taking it even from among thorns,
and the thirsty pant after his wealth.
6 For hardship does not spring from the soil,
nor does trouble sprout from the ground.
7 Yet man is born to trouble
as surely as sparks fly upward.
8 “But if it were I, I would appeal to God;
I would lay my cause before him.
9 He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed,
miracles that cannot be counted.
10 He bestows rain on the earth;
he sends water upon the countryside.
11 The lowly he sets on high,
and those who mourn are lifted to safety.
12 He thwarts the plans of the crafty,
so that their hands achieve no success.
13 He catches the wise in their craftiness,
and the schemes of the wily are swept away.
14 Darkness comes upon them in the daytime;
at noon they grope as in the night.
15 He saves the needy from the sword in their mouth;
he saves them from the clutches of the powerful.
16 So the poor have hope,
and injustice shuts its mouth.
17 “Blessed is the man whom God corrects;
so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty.

18 For he wounds, but he also binds up;
he injures, but his hands also heal.
19 From six calamities he will rescue you;
in seven no harm will befall you.
20 In famine he will ransom you from death,
and in battle from the stroke of the sword.
21 You will be protected from the lash of the tongue,
and need not fear when destruction comes.
22 You will laugh at destruction and famine,
and need not fear the beasts of the earth.
23 For you will have a covenant with the stones of the field,
and the wild animals will be at peace with you.
24 You will know that your tent is secure;
you will take stock of your property and find nothing missing.
25 You will know that your children will be many,
and your descendants like the grass of the earth.
26 You will come to the grave in full vigor,
like sheaves gathered in season.
27 “We have examined this, and it is true.
So hear it and apply it to yourself.”


Hebrews 12:5–11 —And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, *because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.” *Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? *If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. *Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! *Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. *No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. *


Psalm 94:12 —Blessed is the man you discipline, O Lord, the man you teach from your law; *

Psalm 119:75–76 —I know, O Lord, that your laws are righteous, and in faithfulness you have afflicted me. *May your unfailing love be my comfort, according to your promise to your servant. *

Proverbs 3:11–12 —My son, do not despise the Lord’s discipline and do not resent his rebuke, *because the Lord disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in. *

1 Corinthians 11:32 —When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world. *

James 1:12 —Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. *

Revelation 3:19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. *

Fearnot posted: I wrote a few notes to myself for when I were to post on ch.5 but they are in the living room by my chair....which hubby is sleeping in how
I don't want to wake him up, but I wanted to let u know, I have read it etc.
One thing I do remember without referring to was that v. 7...
7) Yet man is born to trouble
as surely as sparks fly upward.
reminds me of John 16:33
"33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer: I have overcome the world.”
Hopefully I will find my notes later but by then, others may have posted some of the same ideas, thoughts etc. which is fine.


That's fine Barbara. By the way, speaking of notes, how are you doing on note taking now? Are you getting better at making them a lot shorter? I remember when I first started and it seemed like it was just totally impossible, but after awhile, it did become easier and now it's just second nature.

 

Originally Posted by eva_from_greece

And then Jobs friends start to say what they believe. They are right to say that God protect his children and the people who are evil will be punished. But, as I said before, its difficult to say if they are accusing Job or if they are trying to tell him to have hope because God will lead him out of this. At the end of the book its obvious that they have judged Job, but until then it was confusing for me.

 

It doesn't matter what you thought before Eva, you know the truth now that they were judging him. So now when you read it, especially after everything that's been explained, you should be able to read these chapters and see what they're really doing. Remember, you have to put yourself back in their time and try to understand what their belief system was. Once you do that, it becomes obvious that they were judging him.

 

Originally Posted by Catt:

Yeah, I didn't understand much of it at first either. Now, I can see their
bias against Job. I think before, it was enough, trying to understand what
these old guys were saying. Let alone, any extra nuances behind their words.
You know, I think people still do that today with sick people.
They are fearful of them, so they avoid them or think up reasons why
it couldn't ever happen to them.
It used to be much worse. 4o years ago they used to hide people with disabilities away.
Now, they are in the same schools as everyone else. We are a lot more comfortable and accepting.
There was a little girl who had this (Minus the black skin and worms) in my
youngest sons grade school. The teacher explained what it was and that
it is not catching. The slightest friction gave her blisters that hurt. She
had to leave public school after a while. But we learned about tolerance and
not being afraid of some one with an auto immune disease.

 

Originally Posted by Fearnot

Cindy you nailed it as always!!! I have been disciplined in the ways you suggested, getting as much 'rest' as possible, and having fun ( it used to be reading fiction, but now that the computer is in my life, it is playing games and watching series on netflick etc.)
Oh yes, you are right, I did that sort of memorizing BEFORE FH. And tho the large amount of verses I had memorized verbatim, helped me from time to time, and I was also in an excellent Bible study program for 7 or 8 years ( BSF which I have mentioned to you before)
I either had such a loooooong way up to go
or
that you watered what BSF laid as a foundation
and
you had an understanding of how I was hung up in my past ( which there is not really time to do in a large Bible study)
It seems like I never memorized the verses about taking thoughts captive....I knew 'of' the verse and I even vaguely understood it...
However, You were able to help me 'truly' apply scripture to my life.
I had applied some scripture to my life ( I stopped a lot of endless arguing with hubby, etc. but I never got to the bottom of my pity party).
Ohhhhh I am reading the other thread, but I am behind due to having only having a few hours on hubby's computer....
and I was right, the delivery of my computer screen has been delayed due to our unusual weather here on the cost. It is now targeted to arrive Mon.or Tue. then hubby has to put it on
So forgive my slowness....I am reading but I am behind but once I get my own computer back......

 

Barbara, what you're saying isn't at all unusual. In fact, I'd say that's probably true for most folks. It takes time before it sinks in that we not only have to know scripture, but we need to understand it and not with human understanding but with the mind of Christ. And once we do understand it that way, even that won't help us if we don't actually apply it to our lives. The difference is that once we're understanding with the mind of Christ, (through asking Him to guide and teach us) that understanding as we read and study is what God uses to change us. It's His Word that changes us, but only as we understand it with the mind of Christ. With that understanding, His Word causes us to want to apply it to our lives and then as we begin to do so, He gives us the strength, ability and whatever else we need in order to apply it, and the change begins to happen. See what I mean?

All I did was help you open yourself to the Lord and He guided you and taught you His Word. As He did so, you were able to apply it to your past as well as your present. He even prepared you for that to be able to happen because by then you were ready to give up your thinking that the world or some of it's ways could help you. You'd already come to the conclusion that God and God alone was the only one that could really help you. I don't think you were sure if He would help you yet, but you were ready to admit that the world's ways had failed you so you were ready to really give Him a try. On top of that, everything you'd learned beforehand about God and His Word actually helped, because the Lord was able to build on all of that, showing what was true, what wasn't and how it all fit together.

Let's face it, self pity is the "in thing" in today's world. That and "dysfunctional families". Satan, through the worldview has just about everyone convinced that their family is dysfunctional and has everyone full of self pity. He promotes the idea that we should always want things that are better then the things we already have and that we should want more of them too. The funny thing is that all our families ARE dysfunctional before we're saved. You can't have anything but that unless both parents are saved anyway, but of course that's not what the world is talking about when they say it. It's only as our families begin to follow God's plan for them that they become functional, loving, godly families. As for self-pity, that's how Satan wants everyone to feel because it causes them to be totally useless to Christ and unable to be in His Will, and of course, less likely to turn to Him for help or at the least less likely, if not unable to believe that He can really help them.

Yes, I was and am blessed that the Lord used me to help guide you to Him, but He was the one who did it all and the most wonderful thing of all is that He will never stop. Even if we were to never speak again till we meet in heaven, He will finish what He's begun in you! You know that of course, and know too that you haven't "needed" me for a very long time. I hope you also realize now that this was never a one way street. Even as the Lord used me to guide and help you, He was teaching me at the same time, and helped me learn a great deal from you as well. I love the fact that ever since you began to abide in the Lord, we can now just be friends and enjoy sharing and growing in God's Word together as sisters in the Lord.

Bible Study Chat #25

Job 4:1–21 (NIV)
Eliphaz
4 Then Eliphaz the Temanite replied:
2 “If someone ventures a word with you, will you be impatient?
But who can keep from speaking?
3 Think how you have instructed many,
how you have strengthened feeble hands.
4 Your words have supported those who stumbled;
you have strengthened faltering knees.
5 But now trouble comes to you, and you are discouraged;
it strikes you, and you are dismayed.
6 Should not your piety be your confidence
and your blameless ways your hope?
7 “Consider now: Who, being innocent, has ever perished?
Where were the upright ever destroyed?
8 As I have observed, those who plow evil
and those who sow trouble reap it.
9 At the breath of God they are destroyed;
at the blast of his anger they perish.
10 The lions may roar and growl,
yet the teeth of the great lions are broken.
11 The lion perishes for lack of prey,
and the cubs of the lioness are scattered.
12 “A word was secretly brought to me,
my ears caught a whisper of it.
13 Amid disquieting dreams in the night,
when deep sleep falls on men,
14 fear and trembling seized me
and made all my bones shake.
15 A spirit glided past my face,
and the hair on my body stood on end.
16 It stopped,
but I could not tell what it was.
A form stood before my eyes,
and I heard a hushed voice:
17 ‘Can a mortal be more righteous than God?
Can a man be more pure than his Maker?
18 If God places no trust in his servants,
if he charges his angels with error,
19 how much more those who live in houses of clay,
whose foundations are in the dust,
who are crushed more readily than a moth!
20 Between dawn and dusk they are broken to pieces;
unnoticed, they perish forever.
21 Are not the cords of their tent pulled up,
so that they die without wisdom?’a

a Some interpreters end the quotation after verse 17.
The Holy Bible: New International Version.

 

Originally Posted by catt

Job 4:1-2
Does Eliphaz mean big wind bag?
He seems to put to words the things Job was trying not to say.
It seems like an oration made with one foot on Job's neck.
vs.2. He spoke because he couldn't stop himself.
I have been nervous before, babbling when I should keep my mouth shut.
vs.3. The way to tell someone they are useless, while they are already sick
and grieving.
vs.6. this seems to say 'believe in yourself'. How many times do we hear that one.
No, Job preferred to believe in God only.
Eliphaz is also hinting that Jobe is guilty of some secret offense.
vs.12-17 This is a ghost story.
vs.17-21 How cruel to remind Job that his family was just crushed to death.
Under all this, he is questioning Job's integrity. Like he was saying 'In my expert
opinion, only God is righteous. So, you must have done something wrong.

 

No, actually Eliphaz means, “God is victorious.”

Yes, you've pretty much nailed it. He reminds me of these prosperity teachers who preach the false teaching that if someone is sick and isn't healed it's either because they don't have enough faith or they have some secret unconfessed sin in their life. Here he basically tells Job that while he helped many other people when they were going through trials, now that he was personally going through one, he wasn't applying his own words to himself. He was saying that Job was being a hypocrite. It wouldn't surprise me if all of us who live with chronic pain or illness had heard these kind of things from people who have such a shallow view of God.

I should say though, that while much of what Eliphaz says isn't true, there is some truth in it. That's how Satan has always worked though. He takes a piece of truth and spins lies around it and with it. Eliphaz's other mistake is something most of us do at times too, which is that we tend to think that whatever we believe is ALL the truth and that there are no exceptions whatsoever to it.

If we look closely at what Eliphaz said, it is true that in general God causes the righteous to prosper and punishes the wicked - those who are living in unrepented sin or who aren't saved. The important words in that sentence however, are the words, "in general". This is because the prosperity of the righteous, and the punishment of the wicked, isn't always done in this lifetime. It's also true that God will use our circumstances to discipline us when we sin, and also to point out sin, and it's true that God always causes everything to work out for our good. But just because God will use trials in those ways, doesn't mean that everyone who's going through a trial has some kind of unrepented sin in their life, which is what Eliphaz was saying of Job. His other friends will pick up this same line of thought which is why Job becomes so adamant that he has not sinned.

 

Originally Posted by Fearnot

I am wondering if perhaps Eliphaz was maybe unknowingly listening to a demon, because starting in v12 it says ( opps I started reading this in my KJV because I was soooooo tired and didn't get up for a different version so sorry, I will try to use a different version next time). That's ok hon. there's nothing wrong with the KJV. It's just not the way we talk anymore which makes it harder for us to understand is all.

Anyway, it says "a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear recieved a little thereof"

So already it sounds like gossip at the very least ? and maybe demonic at the worst?
Job 4:12 —“A word was secretly brought to me, my ears caught a whisper of it. *

I can see where you might get gossip from that, but gossip doesn't hold up when you read the next verses. They show that it had nothing to do with any other person(s) and couldn't have been gossip.

v14 says:" fear came upon me" ...
well God doesn't usually make us to fear about another person..

it goes on to say he was trembling, his bones were shaking and the hair of his flesh stood up and a 'spirit' passed before his face.

It says 'it' stood still but he couldn't discern the form thereof.....that just doesn't sound human?

Any it seems like 1/2 truths' not to mention it was said ( at least to my way of thinking) mean spiritedly.

Am I off on a wrong tack due to it being the KJV?

 

No, not entirely. You got a lot of it, there are just a few things I'd like to point out and others I'd like to enlarge on for everyone. First, let's read it as a whole:

Job 4:12–16 —“A word was secretly brought to me, my ears caught a whisper of it. *Amid disquieting dreams in the night, when deep sleep falls on men, *fear and trembling seized me and made all my bones shake. *A spirit glided past my face, and the hair on my body stood on end. *It stopped, but I could not tell what it was. A form stood before my eyes, and I heard a hushed voice: *

Now, we'll take it apart, but when we do, it's also important to remember that the original had no verse numbers and didn't even have punctuation. It was like one long sentence. Those were supplied later by the scribes and then the verse numbers by the translators.

As we begin to take this apart, we need to remember the rest of the context - that this is Eliphaz speaking and that he's an older man, respected and well versed in the traditions of his country. That he's speaking to Job as well as two other men who are also leaders in their communities, as Job had been. In other words, he's speaking about spiritual matters that he and the other men are all very familiar with and he's speaking as an "elder". He has just finished lecturing on a theological truth that the righteous are never destroyed, but the wicked are sure to be punished either themselves or through their children. What he was saying to Job was quite true. What wasn't true was that he figured any kind of bad thing happening was punishment, therefore Job had to have done something wicked, or to put it another way, Job must have sinned. OK?

Now he begins to back up what he said by saying he'd had a vision. A word was secretly brought to me, my ears caught a whisper of it. What's unusual about this is that he says simply that a word was brought to him, but he doesn't ever say that it was "the word of the Lord" or "a word from the Lord". All the prophets and everyone who had visions from the Lord, were careful to be sure that was included when they spoke of it, and yet he didn't.

From the way this is being presented by Eliphaz, it seems like he is trying to use this "vision" as a means of proving his opinion, to give his opinion more weight. It's easy for anyone to say they disagree with something said, but when that something has come from a vision, it generally causes people to be more cautious about disagreeing. This seems to fit better with what we know about Eliphaz too. While he was a respected elder in his town, Job was the most respected elder of the whole surrounding area. It sounds to me like this man at least, may have harbored some jealousy that Job was more respected and more knowledgeable then he was, and was taking the opportunity of Job's tragic circumstances to show off. Actually it sounds like he may have been the type to have harbored thoughts that he was better then Job and always had been but the people wouldn't recognize that, and so was secretly glad that Job had been brought down a notch so he could take his rightful place as the "top elder". Know what I mean?

Amid disquieting dreams in the night, when deep sleep falls on men, *fear and trembling seized me and made all my bones shake. This part makes it sound like he'd been having some bad dreams which had awakened him, when it occurred. A spirit glided past my face, and the hair on my body stood on end. This doesn't sound "biblical" at all, at least as far as something an angel might have done. Just the fact that he used the word "spirit" rather then "an angel" is a bit disquieting here. He leaves no doubt though that it was something supernatural and that he believed it was from God. He then says, It stopped, but I could not tell what it was. A form stood before my eyes, and I heard a hushed voice:
Again what we're told is ambiguous. Instead of those listening being able to know instantly that they're hearing a Word from the Lord, it's open to interpretation. It can be taken that way- as a word from the Lord, but it can also be taken to simply be the words of another person or even of his own making. He is stacking up the evidence in such a way that most folks hearing it would assume it's from the Lord as they didn't have the time we're taking to think it through, but doesn't actually say it is so he can't later be said to have lied.

The next verses tell us what this "word" was about and it does back up what he was telling Job before. Again, what he's saying is true, but not ALL the truth, and his application of it is wrong. We know that no one is righteous, therefore no one could be more righteous then God. Since no one is really righteous, no suffering anyone goes through can ever said to be really unjust. That's true. But what he's not remembering is that we are also made in the imagine of God and God who created us is also a God of love, mercy, and grace. Eliphaz was very quick to judge Job and assume he'd sinned so God was punishing him, but I bet that if their positions were reversed, he wouldn't welcome someone saying that to him.

Again, it really sounds like Eliphaz was either making up a "vision" to give his words more weight in the minds of the men that he was talking to; or that he had a dream and he's using that dream to give his opinions more weight. Remember that in those days, mystics and seers were common, especially among the pagans. But even those who worshiped God, living among the pagans, often picked up ideas and ways of living from them.

So, it's a lot like what you said, just in a much longer, drawn out way of saying it

Bible Study Chat #24

Originally Posted by eva_from_greece

In verse 23 something interesting happens. Job accuses God of hedging him in so that he can't escape the pain. Remember that Satan used the same word "hedge" to describe how God was protecting Job, and now Job was turning it around. He feels trapped and unable to get out of all that's happening.


Hedge?
Perhaps Job was one of those people who constantly allowed dark thoughts into his mind. Thoughts of "what if this or that happened", and would think of all the possible things that could go wrong. If so that would show that although Job was a righteous man since God Himself had said so, that He didn't entirely trust God with his future. If that's true, then perhaps God allowed all this to happen in order to help Job find a deeper faith and love for Him, that would free him from these terrors and dark thoughts.

Yes but it says he was rightneous, giving offers, have faith in the Lord... How can this be true?

 

A "hedge" is a row of shrubs planted close together so that they make a fence around your yard. Here the word is used to mean something that surrounds a person, usually to protect them. So first, God surrounded Job and all he had to protect him, and then later, Job says he feels surrounded like with a hedge, only now it's stopping him from getting out. See what I mean?

I think the main problem is that we're confusing the idea of him being righteous, with him not sinning. Being righteous doesn't mean that he didn't sin. We all sin, all the time whether we realize it or not. God declared Job righteous, in other words, in His mercy and grace, God made Job righteous -just the same way God saves us. It's not because of anything we do or don't do. We're every bit as bad and sinful as everyone else on the earth. But for some reason, God chose us and decided He would save us, and He did. It's the same way for Job. When the bible tells us that someone was declared righteous in the Old Testament, that's meaning the same thing as someone being saved in the New Testament. Saved people still sin all the time, which is why we need to confess our sins and get right with God again every day.

So yes, Job had faith, he loved God and believed in Him, but he also may have sinned by having these doubts at times. Maybe it was only once in awhile, but even once is a sin. It's the same thing the Lord does with us when He disciplines us. In this case though, we know that the real reason this happened was because of Satan, however God isn't limited, so He could have also used these events in Job's life to teach him that he needed to take control of his thoughts and feelings.


Note though that we don't know if that's true or not. I'm only guessing. All the bible says is that this was caused by Satan. Other then that, we're only given hints of other possible reasons. The reason I guess this is true is simply because we know that God uses everything in our lives to bring us closer to Him and to teach us to walk in His Ways. And because we also know that God brings good out of everything that happens to us.


Do you understand what I was saying now? Does it make sense to you?

 

Originally Posted by catt

Job 3
I consider myself righteous, by the blood of Jesus, by His word and by my testimony.
Yet, this morning and almost every morning I wake up in the flesh. I have to turn
my life back over to Jesus before going further. I had a negative viewpoint,
but I knew that was my flesh. God's whole point of view is too big for me to see. But he
has given me a beautiful personality description in the word. I can think of more
than once when I complained. When I saw God's hedge of protection as God's holding
me back. Please don't laugh... just this past week when things were rough painwise.
I thought to myself "I'm a pricess. A daughter of the King of kings!" It cheered me and
changed my viewpoint.
Job did seem a bit over worried about his children. Just in case sacrifices? We get insurance for our houses, our cars, and our health. Is that similar?

 

I would never laugh about that Catt! That's a beautiful thought and one I've had myself when in pain. You're right too, it helped me as well!

I suppose you could look at it as being similar. I look at it as being the same as when I ask the Lord to forgive me of "all my sin" because I know for a fact that I don't know what most of them even are. I can remember when I was first saved, I thought sin was simply breaking one of the 10 commandments. Therefore if I didn't steal, murder, covet, etc. I wasn't sinning and had nothing to confess. But when I read my bible, where it says we're all sinners and that we sin all the time, even from birth, I realized that I must be sinning even if I didn't know what they were. So I asked the Lord to show me so I could confess them. The Lord is so merciful though, He would never just say, "sure, here's a list" LOL as that would devastate us. Instead, He shows us a few at a time, or maybe one general area we can work on. When we understand about that and have it under better control, then He shows us the next and so on.

Job couldn't know what his children were doing, thinking, or feeling 24 hours a day, any more then we can know what ours are. Therefore, knowing that they must have sinned somehow, and not knowing for sure if they'd remembered to confess them, he did it for them.
It's not really any different then when I pray and ask the Lord to forgive the sins of my children and grandchildren. Just a different format, as back then the proper method was through sacrifice and not just prayer.
Make sense now?

Bible Study Chat #23

I'd like to divert this discussion back to "death" again, since that's what Job was talking about all during chapter 3. How he wished he was dead. I thought it would be a good idea to learn a little more about death and the truth about it.

 

First let me say something we all know, but usually don't consider: death was not a part of God's original plan for us. It's the result of sin and Satan uses our fear of it to enslave us (Hebrews 2:14–15). it's what Satan holds over our heads to keep us in line - or tries to anyway. Once we really know that we no longer have anything to fear though, then Satan has no power over us and cannot manipulate us with it anymore.

What are some of the ways Satan manipulates us and controls us using our fear of death? Well, for one thing, he keeps us focused on ways to prevent our own deaths or the deaths of loved ones. We think that if we go to doctors and get the right preventative medical care, then we can live long healthy lives. Of course that means also concentrating on eating right, getting enough of the right exercise etc. Some will add taking vitamins and supplements to that list, others might add learning things like yoga or mediation, both of which Satan is promoting through the worldview now, and even using medical community to do so.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't go to doctors, or shouldn't eat right or exercise or anything else. That's not what's important. What is important about those things (and everything else) is WHY we're doing it; what's in our hearts. If we think we can beat death, beat God and prolong our lives that way, we've got a big surprise coming. We can't. God has numbered our days from the time we were created. If, when we get sick, we automatically think of going to the doctor, but don't automatically think of talking to the Lord about it, then we should realize that we need to change how we think, and start making the Lord the first one we go to.

Psalm 139:16 —your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. *

Job 14:5 —Man’s days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed. *

Matthew 6:27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? *

Acts 17:26 —From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. *

As much as we may hate to admit it at times, God really is in control. I'm sure we've all known or heard of folks with the very best medical care who died anyway, and others who had none and lived. It's the reason some folks didn't go to work that day on 9/11 and others who generally wouldn't have been there then, did. Not because God didn't love them, He did and does, but that was their time to die. It's why some survive airplane or car crashes and others don't.

God has nothing against doctors at all. In fact Luke was a doctor! He doesn't mind if we go to doctors to be treated and wants us to when we have a need. BUT, He wants us to take the problem to Him first, and He wants us to keep talking to Him about it as long as we have it. Certainly we should follow our doctors orders, as long as they don't disagree with God's Word, or with what He's put in our hearts concerning our condition. (which also won't disagree with His Word)

There's a story starting in 2 Kings 20, and expanded on in 2 Chronicles 32:24, and Isaiah 38 which tells how Hezekiah got sick. He did what we all do. He went to the doctor and was being treated. The Lord was angered because he hadn't come to Him about it and sent Isaiah to tell him that he was going to die. Well, that certainly got his attention so of course he began to pray immediately! But that's not the whole of it. Just as importantly, he repented for not coming to the Lord in the first place, and because his repentance was sincere, the Lord added 15 years to his life. Personally, I think one reason this story of God giving him the extra years is in God's Word, is to get our attention and remind us to always go to the Lord and make Him the focus of everything in our lives.

So we know that death wasn't a part of God's original plan; that it's what Satan holds over us to manipulate us. He uses everything related to death to manipulate us and tries to keep our focus on those things instead of on God, His Word and His Will for our lives each day. What are some of the things related to it? Sickness obviously is, and we just talked about that. So is aging, and as everyone knows there's a HUGE market in the world of things to buy to supposedly prevent aging, slow aging, or at the very least cover it up.

People these days, more so then ever before, seem to be terrified to look their age. They're ashamed of their grey hair, their laugh lines, their wrinkles, etc and some literally spend hours a day working to cover those up and lessen their effects. Many will even alter their bodies surgically to appear younger then they are. And now we're also into "beauty" and wanting to look beautiful or handsome as the case may be. But both of those terms are forever linked in most people's minds with youth, which obviously creates a problem if you're no longer young.

We're constantly seeing commercials with beautiful, young men and women doing things, to sell us every product under the sun. So youth and good looks have been sold to us as being one and the same for a very long time. How often do you see a commercial showing an older mature woman in her 50's, 60's or 70's selling a product? I mean a woman that looks her age? I can't think of a single one. The ones I've seen with people those ages, are either caricatures, animations, or with people that don't look anywhere near their real age. Then when folks do see something about someone older, it's often done in a way that makes fun of them or somehow puts them down. The only commercial I can think of that has older people in it is one for life insurance (of course!) The daughters come home to make sure their dad is ok because he fell, and the daughters want mom to get life insurance! If one of my kids came to me when Bruce had the heart attack and their main concern was that I needed life insurance, I'd be praying for the Lord to soften their hearts and help them see what's really important, since it would seem to me that the only thing they were really concerned about was not be saddled with my debts if I died.

The point is, we can see how we've been taught by the world to view death with fear. To want to avoid it at all costs. I hope too we can start to see just how much of our attention can be drawn to things that are in some way linked to that fear of death.

God tells us that beauty isn't about what's on the outside, or what your body looks like. It's about what's inside your heart.

He tells us that once we're saved we have no reason at all to fear death, because it has no hold over us. We are told that Jesus is to be our example, our model for everything in this life, and that includes death. After Him, we can also look at the apostles. Jesus most certainly didn't fear death. He wasn't thrilled about the manner of his death, but even that didn't bother him in comparison to how becoming sin for us did. Instead what does the Word say that Jesus did?
Hebrews 12:2 —Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. * That joy, was being back with the Father, being back in Heaven, and of course in the process of His death He knew He'd also reconcile us to the Father.

If we look at the apostles, we can see that they all looked forward to death. They didn't dread it or try to escape it. It was their friend and welcome any time. Stephen didn't try to run or get away when the people wanted to stone him. Paul writes saying that he'd prefer to die then to stay here, but that he'll stay as long as the Lord has work for him to do, and that's Peter's testimony as well. In fact when Peter talks about his own coming death in
2 Peter 1:15 —And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things. *, the word used in the original language that's translated either decease or departure, depending on the version you use is a word that actually means "exodus". It's the same word used of Jesus’ death in Luke 9:31 —appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. *. It's not "the end", it's a triumphant exodus from this world into the next!

For us, death is a release from this body of sin and from this world that's been so corrupted by sin. We don't lose anything when we die, except the sin and corruption, and we gain everything! We gain everything because we have an inheritance that's being kept for us in heaven. We're the brothers and sisters of Jesus who is God and everything belongs to Him. Since we inherit all that's His, we inherit everything, we inherit the Kingdom of God! All things are ours.

Romans 7:24–25 —What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? *Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!


Instead of fearing death, think of how absolutely glorious heaven will be, how glorious our lives will be from that instant on through all eternity! If you want to be inspired about Heaven, our real home, read Rev 21 and 22 for just a tiny taste of what it will be like for us.

Revelation 21:4 —He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” *

1 Corinthians 2:9 —However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him”— *

Bible Study Chat #22

Please read Job 3 before beginning this. (don't forget to ask the Lord to guide you to what He has for you to learn from it)

In Job 3, after 7 days, Job finally breaks the silence. Now we don't know how much time passed between the time he went to the ash heap and his friends arrived, although I'm sure there was some time in between there. So the amount of time that's passed since Job was made ill by Satan, is longer then just a week.

Note also that these verses show us that we are a person, a human being, from the moment of conception. There is no doubt here about when life begins.

At this point, when Job starts to talk, we discover that he's fallen into despair and self pity. He's very depressed and says he wishes he was never conceived or born. That if he had to be born, he wishes he'd been born dead. Note that he never suggests that he will take his own life, he's simply doing what I suspect many of us do at times like this, and wishing he were dead.

Even with his friends right there with him, Job is feeling very much alone. His friends can't take or share his physical pain or even his emotional pain. Often we can be surrounded by people who love and care for us and still feel very much alone. That's one of the nasty things self pity does to us. We stop looking at reality, although we think at the time that's exactly what we're looking at. It's amazing how we can deceive ourselves. We look at the past and all the "bad" that's happened, we look into the future and only expect more pain. We refuse to have hope for anything better or to recognize anything good in our lives in the present. We even forget the joys of the past and only focus on the pain.

Job didn't stop believing God was in control, but he did, for the moment stop believing God loved him. I went through a time like that in my life too and remember how miserable I made myself and everyone around me. Thankfully the Lord showed me that I was sinning by being so full of self pity and how to get out of it.

As Job continues to talk about death and how great it would be if only he were dead, we see that he got himself pretty confused, for the views he expressed about what happens when we die, aren't the same here as what he says later with a clearer head, and aren't at all what the Bible says is true about it. For example in Job 3:17 he says the wicked are no longer in turmoil and can rest. The reason for this is because Job wasn't thinking clearly. He was hurt and confused and was only thinking about how great it would be if only there was an end to all the physical and emotional and even spiritual pain he was in. So he mixed things up in his mind, just as we all do when we're in that kind of mental state. The only thing he knows for sure is that death would end all of his pain and in that he was correct.

Then in verse 20 he begins to do what we all do, he starts asking "why" and "why me". There's nothing wrong with asking God why, but we should not demand an answer, for He doesn't owe us anything, and we should be aware that He may not give us an answer in this life. Another thing we should also be aware of is that even knowing the answer doesn't always relieve the pain. For example if you're sick and go to the doctor and he tells you that you have cancer, and that's why you feel the way you do, that's not going to make you feel any better. In fact, it'll probably make you feel worse. We need to remember that we live on promises and not on explanations. Plus, I've learned in my walk with the Lord that He often doesn't tell us "why" until after we've obeyed Him. Job isn't in that kind of position, but I used to often ask God why He wanted me to do something, before doing it, which is how I learned that the answer isn't given until after we obey.

In verse 23 something interesting happens. Job accuses God of hedging him in so that he can't escape the pain. Remember that Satan used the same word "hedge" to describe how God was protecting Job, and now Job was turning it around. He feels trapped and unable to get out of all that's happening.

Notice though that although Job curses the day of his conception and his birth, he never curses God. Satan bet God that Job would curse Him instead of worshiping Him, but once again Satan loses. However, since Satan can't see into the future or know our hearts, but only what we say and do, he was probably thinking that he was well on his way to breaking Job and winning by now.

But God was still with Job, though he didn't know it. He still loved Job and was still very proud of him.

The last couple of verses are quite interesting as many people feel this way.
Job 3:25–26 —What I feared has come upon me; what I dreaded has happened to me. *I have no peace, no quietness; I have no rest, but only turmoil.” * Job was so involved in only allowing negative thoughts into his mind, that he had no peace anymore. He says that he'd feared these things would happen and now they have. We aren't told for sure, so we don't know if the Lord gave Job an intuition that something horrible was going to happen ahead of time or not. It's certainly possible that He warned him though.

However, it's more likely that these verses are the key to why God permitted Job's suffering to happen in the first place. It's also possible that Job feared God and tried to serve Him, but that he also feared the future. Perhaps Job was one of those people who constantly allowed dark thoughts into his mind. Thoughts of "what if this or that happened", and would think of all the possible things that could go wrong. If so that would show that although Job was a righteous man since God Himself had said so, that He didn't entirely trust God with his future. If that's true, then perhaps God allowed all this to happen in order to help Job find a deeper faith and love for Him, that would free him from these terrors and dark thoughts.

The Lord does tell us at the very beginning though that this was all brought on by Satan, so that's the only thing we can know for sure. We also know that Satan loves it when we pity ourselves, for then he can waltz right in and take control. We know that the only reason Job "has no peace" etc, is because he's not taking his thoughts captive and he's not guarding his mind. But then he's not aware that Satan is behind all his troubles, and like us, may feel entitled to let his guard down for now. Having read this book before, I'm sure we're all aware of just how much pain and heartache he could have spared himself if only he'd keep his guard up and take those thoughts captive. But if he had, we wouldn't be able to learn the many lessons this experience teaches him and us.

That's yet something else to remember too. Often when we first learn about taking our thoughts captive, we wish we'd known about it years ago so we could have avoided much of the pain we've gone through. We're forgetting once again though that God is in control of everything, including the timing of everything. We learned about this at exactly the time we were meant to, and all the experiences we went through before hand were to teach us and bring us closer to the Lord.

Eva posted:  I have experienced times that while being in a deep depression, people where telling me things I was considering silly, and it would be better for them not to talk at all. I often felt insulted by the way they showed they care. Jobs friends did the best at that time. We all know they messed up later...
The previous, about his wife is more what I was thinking though. I would have been heart broken in Jobs position

 

Yes, I would have been too, and I imagine it did hurt Job's feelings too. Thankfully he was able to set his feelings aside at that time and remember that his wife was also hurting and was saying things she didn't really mean because of that hurt, as we all often do.

Bible Study Chat #21

Job 2:11–13 —When Job’s three friends, Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite, heard about all the troubles that had come upon him, they set out from their homes and met together by agreement to go and sympathize with him and comfort him. *When they saw him from a distance, they could hardly recognize him; they began to weep aloud, and they tore their robes and sprinkled dust on their heads. *Then they sat on the ground with him for seven days and seven nights. No one said a word to him, because they saw how great his suffering was. *

I thought we'd just cover the above verses for today. When we first see Job's 3 friends, they seem like really great friends. To me these verses show us what real love does when someone is hurting. Each of them traveled quite a long way in order to be with him for one thing. It wasn't like they lived in the same town and just went over to see him. Not only that, but they didn't go to Job's home to see him, because remember, he's out with the lepers by a pile of refuse. (garbage). It was an ash heap because they burned the refuse there. So these 3 guys traveled a long distance, not to go to a nice cozy hotel or home and visit a friend, having a nice meal etc. Instead they came to dump and sat in the ashes with Job. They literally did what the Lord tells us, as the body of Christ to do: They mourned with those who mourned. They weeped with those who weep.

They didn't try to cheer him up with meaningless words that wouldn't help anyway, as so many of us do when we visit someone at a funeral or hospital. They just sat there with him. They didn't say a word, unless you count crying as speaking. And honestly, isn't that what people who are hurting badly sometimes need? Just someone to be there with them, to show that they care enough to be there and don't have to bother them with empty words, but instead can just cry with them, sit silently, put their arm around them maybe and that's all? What a blessing that would be! These friends of Job sat like that with him for a full 7 days and 7 nights. It wasn't a quick little visit out of duty. They really loved Job and they showed him that love by mourning with him instead of trying to stop him from mourning.

I think I already mentioned this, but in case I didn't, notice also that when his friends arrived, they almost didn't recognize Job because his face was so disfigured from the disease. That's another indicator of how sick Job was.

As I said though, to me these verses show what the Lord means when He says we're to mourn with those who mourn. (Romans 12:15) They embody what is said about the body of Christ in 1 Corinthians 12:26 —If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. *- at least for the 7 days spoken of in these 3 verses. They showed God's kind of love during these 7 days instead of the world's kind of love. Their love for Job was sacrificial as they'd come a long way to see him and when they arrived, they didn't arrive to sit in comfort but stayed in the ash heap with Job. They thought of him and not themselves for those 7 days and simply mourned over his great tragedy with him.

Unfortunately, it didn't last as we'll soon see.

Notice that last line again too: "No one said a word to him, because they saw how great his suffering was." They realized that there was nothing they could say that would ease his emotional pain and didn't try to find things to say anyway, which is usually what we do. For some reason, it's hard for us to keep our mouths shut and allow people to feel pain. It's like we have to do something, anything to stop the pain, or at least distract the person from the pain or something to make it a little easier for them.

I can remember many years ago something happened that made me cry, and I could see that my husband didn't know what to do or how to handle it when I cried, which is very rare for me. So I just told him what to do. I remember telling him to "just hold me; let me cry, don't try and make me stop; just hold me and let me get it out." And he did. It was the most comforting thing he could have done for me. After I was better, we discussed it and I explained that sometimes we just need to cry and the most helpful thing to do is not to leave us alone, but to do as Job's friends did: come and be with us, hold us, but don't try to stop us, just let us cry.

Job's suffering was so great that his friends recognized that this was a pain that needed to be expressed, not stopped, and they realized there was nothing wrong with Job expressing his pain or with them expressing it with him. A very good lesson for all of us of what to do when a friend is hurting due to the loss of a loved one or some other great loss.

 

Originally Posted by eva_from_greece

Thats one thing I often think about. I often see people around me in a terrible condition. I know that by not accepting God they allow bad things, and I pray. I pray about my family and a lot of people. But nothing happens, nothing changes. Does this mean God didnt answer my prayer? No! That means that unfortunately most people dont accept Gods offer. But, Satan wants me to think that God dont listen... But I wont
Something out of topic I want to share with you. God did something great! There was a dog that have been raped in Athens last August, she survived but since then nobody was interested in adopting her. Despite the angry messages people wrote about the man who did this, despite their anger nobody actually did something other than making comments... She was the most famous animal of 2013 because of that, but still one animal that nobody would like to adopt. And I said to give it a try and mention this on my website. 2000 people shared this and yesterday she found a home! People who took care of her mention this as a miracle and I am very happy about this! Also, God used me for something good :) I am glad about this also. They thanked me, but I said that I didnt do anything. The trap could be to think that I did this and that happened because of me. But even though I was tempted I took my thoughts captive and avoid this bad bad thought

 

That's wonderful Eva! You're doing so very well! And I love how you understood that God has indeed heard your prayers and is answering them, but that the people haven't accepted His offer yet. There is one other thing to consider as well. Do you remember the story about Esau and Jacob in the Bible? (It starts in Genesis 25:24 with their birth through Genesis 33)

Remember how Jacob took advantage of Esau all the time; took his birthright and his blessing, and then ran away because he was afraid Esau would kill him? While he's living away from home, God taught him many things and began changing him. He finally learned to think of others and not just himself. He talks to God a lot and God helps him. Then, many years later, he decides to return home, but he's scared because he doesn't know if Esau is still angry or not, but thinks he is, so he prays to God to help him.

Their mother wanted to have peace in the family so I'm sure she was praying that her two boys would learn to get along with each other. But it sure didn't look like God was answering that prayer! Especially not when Esau wanted to kill Jacob and Jacob had to run off to another place to live for awhile. She probably felt like God was either saying "no", or hadn't heard her prayers. But He had heard them and He was working on both of those boys hearts that whole time! What the mother saw as a "bad thing", when her son Jacob had to leave home in fear of his life, was actually part of an answer to her prayer! If he hadn't been forced to leave home, he would not have met with God and would not have met his future wives, and most importantly, would not have learned all the lessons he needed to learn to change him from being self centered, to being God and other centered! While all of that was going on with Jacob, Esau was also being taught lessons he needed to learn by God. Both boys began to change for the better and continued to as the years went by. Until finally, they both became totally new men and were able to get along with each other.

So all during all those years, God was working on each of them, and He was answering her prayer. She just didn't know it, because she couldn't see what was happening in their hearts, and of course couldn't see Jacob at all since he wasn't at home anymore.

There are many other examples of this all through the Bible. It shows us that true, lasting change usually doesn't happen overnight or all at once. Instead, it's a process where God works with the person to change them from the inside out.

It teaches us that God does hear our prayers and He does answer them and that this is the reason He tells us that we must live by Faith and not by sight. To their mother, nothing seemed to have changed, but in fact, the two selfish boys were growing to be loving, responsible, godly men. In Jacob, God brought about a spirit of humility and generosity. Esau was changed from seeking revenge to seeking reconciliation. It was only after these years of working on their hearts that the answer to her prayer could be clearly seen in the physical world. But if we live by faith instead of sight, then we can know that God is working things out even though it doesn't look like anything has changed.

When the answer to our prayers seems to be delayed like that, it also teaches us patience and patience has it's perfect work to do in us. For patience, also called perseverance, must finish it's work in us so that we may be mature and complete in our faith.
(James 1:4)

Remember too that James 1:6–7 tells us that when we pray and ask God for something, we need to pray without doubting. We are not to doubt that God will answer our prayer, because when we doubt it shows we don't have faith in God. It doesn't matter how much time has passed, whether it's one day, one year, one decade, or if you've been praying for something for 40 years or more. We must believe that God hears our prayer and has and is answering our prayer. We can know that we will see the answer in God's own perfect time, not ours. So we don't allow ourselves to believe our feelings or any of the lies Satan whispers to us or yells at us. Instead, we just keep walking and praying by faith and not by sight, knowing that pleases Him. Remember, trusting God, having faith that He will answer our prayers is not a feeling, it's a choice, a decision we make.

Finally, God also sometimes delays the answer to our prayers to determine just how badly we want something. Of course He already knows the answer to that, but often, we don't. We think we want something, but when the answer is delayed, we just give up. That shows us that we must not have wanted it very much since we're not willing to continue to ask Him for it. Just as when Jesus wrestled with Jacob all night that time, remember that? Why did Jesus let Jacob continue to wrestle with Him all night long? All He did at the end was touch Jacob's hip and disable him. He could have done that within a moment of when they started wrestling, but He didn't. He waited. He let Jacob keep at it all night long before He ended it. Why? So Jacob could see how badly he wanted that blessing of forgiveness and hope. And so Jacob would know that if he really wanted it, then he couldn't give up when things seemed to be taking a long time, or not going "his way". He would have to trust God to be doing what was best for him. It's the same way for us when we pray for something. God wants us to see just how much we want it, and what we're willing to sacrifice for it.

 

Originally Posted by jackswife

Yes indeed. It's getting ahead of the story, but many well meaning folks (including myself) have added hurt to someone already hurting because instead of just being there we feel the need to say something "to make it better" and that "something" turns out to be the wrong thing.

 

Yes, I'm afraid that I'm just as guilty as others for doing that very thing at times.

Bible Study Chat #20

We've come to Job 2:7 now where Satan goes and immediately causes Job to break out in horrible sores all over his body. Just reading it the way it's stated doesn't make it sound too bad, but let's take a closer look at what Satan actually did to him. I want to quote from a commentary for this as it explains it quite well:

The condition pemphigus foliaceus, matches the symptoms of Job’s afflictions—inflamed, ulcerous sores (Job 2:7), itching (Job 2:8), degenerative (constantly getting worse, chronic) changes in facial skin (Job 2:7, Job 2:12), loss of appetite (Job 3:24), depression (Job 3:24-25), loss of strength (Job 6:11), worms in the boils (Job 7:5), running sores (Job 7:5), difficulty in breathing (Job 9:18), darkness under the eyes (Job 16:16), foul breath (Job 19:17), loss of weight (Job 19:20; Job 33:21), continual pain (Job 30:17), restlessness (Job 30:27), blackened skin (Job 30:30), peeling skin (Job 30:30), and fever (Job 30:30). Job was so disfigured by the disease that his friends hardly recognized him (Job 6:21). The Bible Knowledge Commentary

A summary of Job's physical pain: Inflamed ulcerous sores Job 2:7 Persistent itching, Facial disfiguration, Loss of appetite, Fears and depression, Sores that burst open, scab over, crack and ooze with pus, Worms that form in the sores themselves, Difficulty in breathing, A darkening of the eyelid, Loss of weight, Continual pain, High fever with chills and diarrhea, On top of that Job says,"my breath is offensive to my wife". When Pain is Prolonged

As we can see, Job was in very bad shape and I think many of us can relate to at least some of his symptoms. (if nothing else, the constant pain) We're very blessed today because we do have some pretty strong medications that can help us endure pain and other symptoms, but none of that was around during Job's time. Understanding how much pain Job was in and how very sick he was is also important for us to know if we want to understand what happens in the rest of this book. After all, I know for a fact that when my pain gets out of control, that my attitude changes. I start snapping at people for no reason and getting upset at little things, etc. I don't think we can blame Job if he did something similar with all the pain he's in.

Just so it's understood, Job 2:8 —Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes. * is letting us know that Job went off to where the lepers stayed and stayed with them because of his disease as he had no way of knowing if he was contagious or not. He may have scraped himself with the broken pottery simply because of the itching, or in order to break open the sores, but I suspect it was probably due to the itching. It's at this point that his wife shows up and says something that always shocked me. She sure doesn't sound like a very nice person does she? Job 2:9 —His wife said to him, “Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!” *

Can you imagine your spouse saying something like that to you after so much tragedy has happened??? You've lost all your money, all your means of making money, your children, your slaves, and now, at least for Job, even his health, and that's what she says??? But, let's be fair, she was hurting too. After all they were her children too, and she'd also gone from being wealthy and respected to being in poverty and was probably being gossiped about constantly too. She was under a great deal of stress. So her state of mind wasn't at it's best either.

What I see here is a perfect picture of the truth that those we hurt the most are often the very people we love the most. So I don't think she didn't love her husband, I think she was just hurting very badly herself and said something she really didn't mean just as we all do at times.

In my mind I have this picture of the wife grieving for her children and worried about how she's going to get enough food to feed her husband and herself that night, and upset about what the neighbors have been saying about them both. As she's dealing with all these feelings, what does she see? She sees her husband praising God instead of comforting her the way she wants him to. I don't mean to say that Job didn't comfort his wife, I'm sure he tried to since God said he was a righteous man, but that doesn't mean that his wife didn't want more comfort then he gave her.

So she sees him praising God while she's grieving and wanting him, really just wanting the emotional pain to stop, but instead of stopping it gets worse: now her husband is terribly ill and looks just awful too! It must have both shocked and terrified her! How was she going to take care of him? What could she do for him? Now what would happen to them??? And here he is, sitting in ashes with lepers (which would have also terrified her because they believed you could get it just by being near someone who had it) calmly scratching himself with pottery! She also knew God was in control, but she reacted the way most of us would have. She blamed God and got angry.

She got angry at her husband and at God. At God for all He'd caused to happen and at her husband for so calmly accepting it. She felt like screaming, ranting and raving, not sitting calmly like he was, and she wanted him to do the same thing. So she screamed at him: "Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!" She wasn't saying that she wished he was dead, she figured there was nothing else God could possibly do to hurt them other then to cause her husband to die, so that was logically what would happen next, at least that's what she thought.

This also shows us another of Satan's favorite tricks. One he first used in the garden of Eden. He loves to use our loved ones to cause us pain, and that's what he did here. If she had been taking her thoughts captive and replacing them with God's Truth from the start, he wouldn't have been successful with her, and while she would have still grieved, she too would have known the peace that Job knew. She didn't do that though, instead she dwelled on what had happened and her fears of the future, and Satan was able to both upset her emotionally and use her to cause Job pain at a time when he most needed his wife's support. This is another area the Lord's shown me too. That just because our husband appears to be calm and have it all under control, that does not mean he doesn't need our support, compassion and affection. On the contrary, it often means he needs it more then ever so he can maintain his integrity. I'm sure that it would have helped Job greatly had she been able to give it.

Notice how Job reacts to her. He tells her she's talking like a foolish woman. In Psalms we're told that it's foolish people who mock God. Job wasn't calling her names, he was showing her what she was doing and reminding her of what was right. Job then says, "shall we accept good from God and not bad?" Notice that Job says "we", so he is including her in what he says, not excluding her. He's recognizing that they are both going through all of this together and it's not just him (or her) alone. He's speaking the truth to her with love.

I think we've all probably read this book before, so let me remind everyone too that at the end, when God rebukes Job's friends and tells them to repent, she is never rebuked or told to repent. It's possible that's because she was under the cover of Job's righteousness just as the spouse of a believer is sanctified by the believing spouse, but it seems more likely from what we read that she repented on her own, because we don't hear her complain again, but know she stays with her husband. (she's the one who gave birth to the children God gives Job at the end).

The last sentence in that verse, Job 2:10, is that "in all this, Job did not sin in what he said." That shows us that up till now, even though Satan attacked Job's body, causing him chronic pain and illness, he still worshiped God. It also shows us that so far, he did not fall prey to the sin of self pity, or blame God saying God wasn't being fair or that he deserved better treatment from Him, or any of the other many ways we often sin at times like this. Instead he proved God right by showing that some people would worship Him even if they weren't getting anything for it- even if He wasn't bribing them to do so.

The next verses begin to introduce Job's friends so we'll talk about them tomorrow, God wiling. I would like to mention one other thing that came to my mind while writing this. Whenever we read the Bible, it's important to do more then "just read the words". I think it's easy to see that God includes a LOT of information in every sentence. For example when we read the one sentence about his wife and how she reacted to all that had happened. Think about all we got from that, and I'm sure if we tried we could get more. Yet it was mostly only one sentence we got it from. We need to remember to ask ourselves (and the Lord) "why" things like that are said; ask how the person must have been feeling and try to imagine what they were going through that would have caused them to say or do whatever the verse says. Another example is the short sentence of what Satan did to Job. If we hadn't asked ourselves what that meant, what Job was going through because of it, we would have written it off as just a few sores and no big deal. See what I mean? This is a good example of what I mean when I talk about "studying the Word with the Lord", because it shows what we can get from scripture when we're talking to Him about it and asking Him why that would have happened or been said etc. When we talk to Him, we should also use our own minds, as that's what God gave them to us for. He never tells us to make our minds "blank", but instead wants us to use them. That's how He leads us to the answers. I think sometimes people get the wrong impression that they're supposed to ask Him questions and then sit quietly and "wait" for an answer to just appear out the sky. While that can happen, it generally doesn't happen that way. Usually God uses our own minds to guide us and help us discover the answers to our questions.

 

Originally Posted by catt

I like what you wrote about Job's wife. I had never thought of her as
anything but harsh.
When I stopped to think of it, she did well to come and see him.
He was unclean by the Mosaic law. If she touched him she would be too.
Then she would have to stay away for the proper amount of time, wash her
clothes and herself, buy two birds for the sacrifice and bring them to the
priest for the atonement. Pretty hard to do while you are homeless and
have no money. Oh, and the gossiping neighbors!
When I thought of her loss. How she was so recently in the center of a
thriving community, then completely cut off. I wouldn't be surprised if she
was depressed. Men generally do better at being alone than women do.
I am learning how to live by myself. This is the 6th month since I moved
due to divorce. I haven't been alone for 35 years. Sometimes I get sick
of my own company. I have much to be thankful for. I too have to take
the thoughts captive and replace them with the truth of God's word.
Poor Job, he was disgusting. I bet the lepers didn't even want to associate
with him. We get acne and think we have it bad.

 

You're probably right that the lepers probably didn't want anything at all to do with him either, and many probably gloated over the fact that he was now just as unclean as they were. Misery loves company.

I'm not sure the Mosaic law was in effect during the time Job lived, but even if it wasn't, they most likely did know about being unclean. In fact they must have for the lepers to have lived separately. And since Job offered sacrifices, it's quite likely it was normal to offer sacrifices after you'd become clean again anyway.

Yes, it can be hard to be alone, but it helps to remember that really isn't true since the Lord is always with us and He's a great listener! However there's been many times when I was alone that I had to tell Him that I'd really appreciate another human to talk to too! With that in mind, remember, you can always give me a call!

 

Originally Posted by jtheb

Good thoughts! I was alone for ten years and most of the time liked it.
?What is the date of Job? Doesn't it predate Moses?

 

I believe so John. Of all the commentaries and handbooks I've read about it, I thought the most informative one talking about the date was The MacArthur Bible handbook which I'll share with you:

The date of the book’s writing may be much later than the events recorded therein. This conclusion is based on:
(1)
Job’s age (Job 42:16);
(2)
his life span of nearly 200 years (
Job 42:16), which fits the patriarchal period (Abraham lived 175 years; Gen. 25:7);
(3)
the social unit being the patriarchal family;
(4)
the Chaldeans who murdered Job’s servants (
Job 1:17) were nomads and had not yet become city dwellers;
(5)
Job’s wealth being measured in livestock rather than gold and silver (
Job 1:3; Job 42:12);
(6) Job’s priestly functions within his family (
Job 1:4, 5); and
(7)
a basic silence on matters such as the covenant of Abraham, Israel, the Exodus, and the law of Moses. The events of Job’s odyssey appear to be patriarchal. Job, on the other hand, seemed to know about Adam (
Job 31:33) and Noah and the Flood (Job 12:15).

These cultural/historical features found in the book appear to place the events chronologically at a time probably after Babel (Gen. 11:1–9) but before or during the period of Abraham (Gen. 11:27ff.), making it the most ancient book in the Bible.

The MacArthur Bible handbook
 

 

Catt posted:

Good point about the timing of Job. I think it was the
animal sacrifices that threw me off.

 

No worries Catt. Most folks don't realize that this book was written before all that. After all, it's placed after that in the Bible, so you'd think logically, that stuff had already happened. Well, at least I used to before I really started to study it.

Kind of like when we read about Abraham, Cain and Abel, or Noah. All of them can be really confusing because it sure seems like they know the 10 commandments and the Law, but they hadn't been given yet. To me it was really neat when I realized that they knew about all those things because of what Adam and Eve had learned during their time in the Garden and that it had been passed down through all the generations. And of course that God had probably helped by revealing it to key people as well over the course of time, or just reminding them about it.

Originally Posted by Fearnot

I never really read about the worms in the sores....euuuuwwww! That would have been very hard to handle. Hard to have them and hard as a wife or friend to see them wiggling and squirming around gross! I also missed how tired it would have made him, but when I think about how tired I am all the time from pain alone, it makes perfect sense. Also bad breath, something I fear I am dealing with any time I notice someone stepping back a step, makes me wonder Oh Oh, Is my breath bad? Then I step back another step. I already have a built in personal space issue ( I don't like to be nose to nose talking to someone, I just naturally feel better a few steps away).
And it is soooooo true about how satan likes to hurt us thru our family (children especially comes to mind!!). But the fact that satan started that first in the garden I had never really put together either.

 

Originally Posted by catt

Just a thought.
Sometimes goodness isn't pretty or nice.
As a girl I was taught to be nice. Mother's admonition was,
"Don't do that it's not nice!" But sometimes goodness is gritty
and brutal. Consider the cross. All the times our savior was
tempted, but did not sin. Only to go to the cross and bear
all the sins of the world. And here is Job. Is he a type of
Christ? He was most certainly tempted and yet he did not sin.
The way he bore suffering was a testimony to the goodness of God.
But it wasn't pretty or nice.

 

True Catt, good isn't always pretty or nice. Getting a flu shot hurts, but it's a good idea to get one for many people.

No, Job isn't generally considered a type of Christ. Instead, we'll discover that he cries out to God asking Him for a mediator to stand between him and God. Of course we know that Christ is the answer to that cry.

Bible Study Chat #19

So we left Job grieving, but still not sinning, proving that we humans can and sometimes at least, will worship God even if it doesn't seem like we're getting anything for doing so. Let's see what happens next: Job 2:1 —On another day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. * Another day and Satan is up to his old tricks still. Next we read that the Lord boasts a little about Job and how he didn't sin and still worshiped Him even with all the tragedy that Satan brought on him. Note how this is worded though: Job 2:3 —Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.” *

This verse is the key to understanding the whole book. Notice that God says here that even though Job had been put through a horrible tragedy, that none of it was his fault. He'd done nothing to "deserve" it. He had not sinned before the tragedy and he did not sin after it either. He was "blameless". Sin was not the cause of anything that had happened to him. Again though, although Job is blameless, and did not sin because of what happened, that doesn't mean that Job never sinned. He did, because he was human just like us. What the Lord is saying is that none of Job's sins were the cause of what happened.

I'm sure that Job probably searched his heart and soul to determine if there was some hidden sin that he was unaware of, just like we all do when some trial comes on us. The difference is that when Job searched his heart, he recognized that thee were no "hidden sins" and knew that God had forgiven all his previous sins because he confessed them regularly. (remember how Job even did that for his children regularly just in case they sinned? If he did that for his children, he certainly did it for himself!) So while Job recognized that he was a sinner, he also recognized that God had forgiven him and that he had maintained his integrity; he realized that this tragedy was not caused by any sin in his life.

Because Job realized that, he therefore did not dwell on it. He didn't doubt himself or God. He knew that the Lord would have revealed any sin to him before causing such a tragedy and given him a chance to repent of it before causing this anyway. So he accepted the fact that this wasn't caused by sin in his life.

He also accepted another thing the above verse shows. That God was in control. That God allowed all of it to happen. As far as most of us are concerned, there's not much difference between allowing something and causing something- it still comes from God's hand. That's really hard for us to deal with, and we'll see that Job is eventually going to have a hard time with it too. For now though, it's enough for us to realize that God is indeed in control, even of the "bad" things. Nothing happens that is outside of His Will.

In the very next verse though, Satan throws God's Word's back at him, and says the only reason Job was still worshiping Him was because God didn't allow Satan to go far enough. Satan tells him that if he were allowed to attack Job personally, Jobs body, then Job would stop worshiping Him. Job 2:4–5 —“Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. *But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.” * So again God gives Satan permission - with a limit. Satan can strike his body but he cannot take his life. Notice how each time God has given Satan permission to do something, He has also placed limits on what Satan can do. This is very good news for us!

It lets us know that even if we're under a satanic attack, that there are limits to it that Satan and his demons cannot cross. We also know that God never allows us to be tempted beyond anything we're unable to withstand, and that He always leaves a way out of it for us. 1 Corinthians 10:13 —No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it. *One of our biggest problems is often that we don't like the "way out" that God leaves us and refuse to use it. The point I'm trying to make here though is twofold: First that God places limits on Satan and his demons. They cannot do whatever they want to, whenever they want to. They are under the Lord's complete control all the time. On top of that, we should also always remember that Satan was completely and totally defeated by our Lord on the cross. (Hebrews 2:14; Colossians 2:15; etc) His biggest weapon against us is deceit. If he can get us to believe that he can hurt us, then he's won; but if we hold on to God's Truth, remembering that he was already defeated once and for all time, then all he can do is annoy us until he finally realizes that we aren't going to fall for his lies anymore.

Satan isn't dumb, and he knows us very well. He is not God though, and does not have the power that God has, although we often act like he's as powerful as God. Satan, as well as God, knows how basically selfish and self centered we are. He knows too therefore that the biggest trial for us is when our bodies are affected in some way that causes pain, disability, and/or disfiguration (to damage the appearance of something). Satan often uses pain and disease to try and draw us away from God, just as he's now suggesting he do to Job.

Those of us who live with chronic pain know how much we can be tempted to sin because of it. We're tempted to blame God, to think He mean or cruel; we're tempted to be angry at Him and to say that we, like Job, don't deserve any of this; we're tempted to even challenge God and say that if He really exists that He should prove it by stopping our pain or healing us; we're tempted to become bitter about the physical cause of our pain - blame it on other people, such as doctors, or someone that may have caused or aided in an accident, or our parents even if it's genetic; anything and anyone just so long as it's not ourselves. We're tempted to deny God, tell Him we don't believe in Him anymore; we're tempted to challenge Him to prove Himself, and test Him. We're tempted then to go in the opposite direction too and start blaming ourselves, believing that it must be because of sin in our lives; we're tempted to beat ourselves up mentally, emotionally and spiritually because of the supposed sin; then when we've confessed everything under the sun and are still in pain, we go back the other way and start getting angry at God again, saying He's not fair. We're tempted to believe that we're not healed because we don't have enough faith too and put ourselves through all kinds of needless torment trying to "increase our faith". All this of course causes us to feel ashamed and guilty, and we're often not even sure of what! We're tempted to take and do things we shouldn't in order to relieve the pain; and on an on it goes....

Satan knew what he was doing when he said that being allowed to attack Job's body would be the ultimate test of his faith! Honestly, and sadly, many people when they experience chronic pain and or illness, do turn away from the Lord and many, if not most, never return.

(Since I know that many of you taking part in this also live with pain, I'd like to point out here what an honor and opportunity we've been given by being afflicted with pain! Although God doesn't have "favorites", this most certainly isn't something He allows just any Saint to go through. (I know, most of us think most of the time, that we wish He wouldn't allow us to go through it either!) But think about it a moment. We know God has many rewards for us for many things which we'll all receive at the Bema Judgement, and that He also rewards us here at times. We can also know that the harder something is to do or to bear, the bigger the reward will be, and that He never gives anyone anything that they can't handle with His help. Basically what I'm saying is that the pain we live with is an opportunity given us by the Lord to be like David, Moses, Peter, Paul, etc. By choosing to allow God to use this pain to grow us in our faith instead of turning away from Him, we've even already passed the first test with flying colors! From that point on, every step forward we took and continue to take, will only add to our reward. God doesn't give many of His Saints this opportunity friends, so let's choose to cooperate with God as best we can and let Him be glorified by our pain!)

But there are those, who like Job, choose to keep on clinging to God and keeping on, one step at a time. They are the ones who choose to believe anyway, even when everyone says they shouldn't; even when all their circumstances seem to indicate that they shouldn't - they just keep on hanging on to Him. That's what those of us who live with pain have done. Just like Job is.

It's really the same way for other tragedies as well, such as losing a spouse or child. Just like Job, we may not have understood it, we still may not completely understand it, but we "know" God loves us and we love Him, no matter how much pain we're in. We'll see that even Job will have his moments when doubts creep in; when he feels like he just can't take another moment of it; when he doesn't know what to do or what to think; when he feels like his life isn't worthwhile and it would be better if he were dead. We'll see that Job will deal with all these things and more, just like many of us have, and Job comes through the other side, just as one day, we will too. Because the Lord allowed Job to go through all this, we can learn how to deal with it ourselves.

To summarize and conclude, the key to understanding the book of Job is to realize that none of the tragedies that have or will happen to Job were caused by any sin in Job's life. It wasn't Job's "fault". He did nothing wrong. Secondly, we also need to realize that God is always in control -of both the good and the bad. That nothing ever happens that is outside of His Will. Last, God places limits on Satan. He doesn't have a "free hand", he cannot do whatever he wants to. He can only do what God allows. That's also true of any temptations, there are always limits to them, and always a way out of them. This is true of our trials as well. They may feel "endless" when we're going through them, but there will always be an end and the Lord will always be right there with us.

 

Originally Posted by catt: Colossians 2:15
Living Bible (TLB)
15 In this way God took away Satan’s power to accuse you of sin, and God openly displayed to the whole world Christ’s triumph at the cross where your sins were all taken away.
I have heard there is a translation that reads
"Christ has made a laughing stock of Satan"
I couldn't find it, but I think the one above it is pretty good too.
It reminds me of the one in 1 Peter 4:8-10 where He says,
"Control yourselves. Be on your guard. Your enemy the devil is like a roaring lion.
He prowls around looking for someone to chew up and swallow. Stand up to him.
Stand firm in what you believe. All over the world you know that your brothers and sisters are going through the same kind of suffering.
God always gives you the grace you need. So you will only have to suffer for a little while.
Then God himself will build you up again. He will make you strong and steady."
I remember "finding" this one when I was a new Christian. It meant a lot to me.
What a wonderful promise from God.

 

"Christ has made a laughing stock of Satan"
It's the same one you posted I think hon. Here's the NIV translation. Col 2:15 —And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. * This is the NET translation: Col 2:15Disarming the rulers and authorities, he has made a public disgrace of them, triumphing over them by the cross. *The words in the original language that these are translated from though indicate something done publicly, is well known and, well let me actually quote what it says: "the deportment by which one becomes conspicuous or secures publicity". Now, add that together with the meaning of the word translated "triumphing" which I'll quote part of here: From the root word meaning a hymn sung in festal processions in honour of the god Bacchus. Bacchus was the God of wine and alcoholic beverages, and was always associated with people having parties and getting drunk. Add the meaning of the word for "disarmed" which is "to strip off", "unclothe" or "disarm". "An undressing or striping off". It can also have the idea of falling into disrepute. In Col 2:15 it: appears to be a case of figurative usage, but it may refer to the stripping away of weapons and hence the removal of authority and power. Anyway, putting it all together, the mood behind what's being said could easily give the idea of making a laughing stock out of Satan.

I did do a search for the word laugh & one for "laughingstock" which would include any word with that in it, and no verses about Satan showed up in any of the 20 plus versions I have. That doesn't mean it's not in one of the versions I don't have though I really dislike the "message" version, but in this case it's kind of funny and you can see the idea of being a laughingstock: Col 2:15 —He stripped all the spiritual tyrants in the universe of their sham authority at the Cross and marched them naked through the streets. *

1 Peter 4:8-10 is a wonderful promise to us all!