I wanted to bring this over from the other thread for those who haven't seen it:
Is God a liar then? Does He really go against His own Word? If it ok for us to lie under some circumstances then we might as well just throw the bible in the trash because it's useless as it doesn't tell the truth if it contradicts itself. I'm just going to quote some commentaries so people will see that it's not just me saying this.
Joshua 2:4-6 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them.” (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.)
2:5I do not know:The NT commends Rahab for her faith, not her falsehood (see Heb. 11:31). James mentions her together with Abraham as an example of good works (see James 2:25). The Open Bible
First, Rahab was a pagan woman living in a pagan society. The degree of ethical consciousness displayed by the early Phoenicians and Caneanites was very low indeed. No doubt Rahab was absolutely unaware that telling this lie was a sin. She was humanly no more concerned over this falsehood than she was over her own occupation. Secondly, nowhere do we find a reference that either the spies, or later Joshua, ever condoned this lie. A lie by any other name, even if it is little and white, is nevertheless a lie. The spies did not ask Rahab to lie for them, nor did they commend her for this action. Thirdly, although there appears to be seedlike faith in Rahab, nevertheless there is no clear reference to her faith in the true God of Israel until after the lie was told. The deception, which was almost matter-of-factly and routinely carried out, was not at all ethically troublesome to Rahab before her confession of faith in Jehovah. One can only assume that the situation would have been different after that confession. KJV Bible commentary.
1 Samuel 21:1-3 David went to Nob, to Ahimelech the priest. Ahimelech trembled when he met him, and asked, “Why are you alone? Why is no one with you?” David answered Ahimelech the priest, “The king charged me with a certain matter and said to me, ‘No one is to know anything about your mission and your instructions.’ As for my men, I have told them to meet me at a certain place. Now then, what do you have on hand? Give me five loaves of bread, or whatever you can find.”
The king hath commanded me a business, and hath said unto me, Let no man know—This was a direct falsehood, extorted through fear. David probably supposed, like many other persons, that a lie is quite excusable which is told for the sole purpose of saving the speaker’s life. But what is essentially sinful, can never, from circumstances, change its immoral character; and David had to repent of this vice of lying (Ps 119:29). Psalm 119:29-30 Keep me from deceitful ways; be gracious to me through your law. I have chosen the way of truth; I have set my heart on your laws. A commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments.
Deception. It is disappointing to see David depending on lies for protection. He lied to the priest and to the king, but he could not lie to Doeg: “For the sons of this world are more shrewd in their generation than the sons of light” (Luke 16:8). Whenever you think you have “pulled off” a smart deal, you will find a Doeg ready to give you trouble (1 Sam. 22:9ff.; see also Ps. 52).
“Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who deal truthfully are His delight” (Prov. 12:22).
Is It Ever Right to Lie?
Scripture commands us to tell the truth and warns about the consequences of lying. Jesus is our example, for there was no deceit in His mouth (1 Pet. 2:22). We must always speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15). If our telling the truth endangers others, silence is our best response. When David ran ahead of God, he found himself in trouble and lied. The safest thing is to stay away from those situations and to pray, “Lead us not into temptation.”
With the word Bible commentary.
And this commentary points out the consequences of David's sin of lying:
David resorted to deception at this point is not clear. He may have responded in panic either to get Ahimelech to supply his needs and/or to protect the priest from later accusations concerning knowledge of David’s flight. The brief mention of Doeg anticipated his future merciless role (1 Sam. 22:18, 19). In the twisted mind of the rejected king the presence of David at Nob and the help Ahimelech gave David seemed a conspiracy against the king (1 Sam. 22:8, 13, 16, 17). With total contempt for the priesthood, Saul called for death of the priests (1 Sam. 22:16–18). His Israelite servants refused such a heinous order, but there was no hesitancy on the part of the Edomite, Doeg (1 Sam. 20:18), who extended the massacre to all Nob as a city under the ban (see 1 Sam. 15:3, note). This was a further fulfillment of the prophecy against Eli’s house (1 Sam. 2:31–33; 4:11, 18; 1 Kin. 2:26, 27). When David learned of the disaster through its only survivor, Abiathar, he confessed that he was ultimately responsible for it. This is a tragic example of how sin affects others. David assured Abiathar safety because David was sure of divine protection (1 Sam. 22:23)
1 Samuel 22:20-23 But Abiathar, a son of Ahimelech son of Ahitub, escaped and fled to join David. He told David that Saul had killed the priests of the Lord. Then David said to Abiathar: “That day, when Doeg the Edomite was there, I knew he would be sure to tell Saul. I am responsible for the death of your father’s whole family. Stay with me; don’t be afraid; the man who is seeking your life is seeking mine also. You will be safe with me.”
Woman's study Bible
There are actually many more instances of lying in the bible. Just as there are many instances of adultery, idolatry and every other sin. I seriously doubt any of us would say that adultery was ok in certain circumstances or attempt to say that God thinks it is either. Why then do we attempt to say so about lying? One of the things atheists love to say is that God approves of polygamy because that's in the bible. Well I'm sorry to let them down, but God doesn't approve it it either. Yes, it's in the bible, just like lying, adultery, stealing, idolatry, and murder, but God approves of no sin for any reason. The people in the Bible however are human just like we are and they all sinned-every single last one of them, just as we do. That is what the bible records, God doesn't approve of any sin.
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| I find it hard to believe that God would want us to help a criminal do harm or kill someone as in the scenario I shared. I doubt I would do it and I sure hope someone would lie if I was the one being chased. Something just doesn't seem right about that. |
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| Originally Posted by Cindy  What you're saying then really is that you're trusting in the lie, and the person doing the lying and not God. God does not approve of anyone's lies in the Old Testament and He did not tell us it was Ok to lie in some instances. This is a difficult thing for sure which is why I brought it up. It's one thing to say that "little white lies" are wrong (which they definitely are) but when we continue and say that a lie told to "try and save someone's life" is wrong and a sin, most people do have trouble accepting that. (I don't recall any of the apostles or early Christians lying to save their lives or the lives of their children even) But what it comes down to in the long run is do we believe God's Word or man's philosophy? Do we trust man or God? Do we really really believe that God says what He means and means what He says? We aren't told to live by the worlds standards but by God's standards. It's not easy and I doubt if any could do it without His help, but that's the great part, because when we decide to follow Him and obey at any cost, then He takes over and does the rest. That's when verses like these come into play: Matthew 10:19-20 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. I don't think the Holy Spirit is going to direct anyone to lie. If someone said He did, we'd know they were lying because God doesn't lie nor does He ever tell us to. John 14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. Matthew 16:24-26 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? Revelation 12:11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. We aren't saved by lies, or by any effort of our own or of others even, but by God. Psalm 20:7 Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the Lord our God. Isaiah 31:1 Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help, who rely on horses, who trust in the multitude of their chariots and in the great strength of their horsemen, but do not look to the Holy One of Israel, or seek help from the Lord. It's in times like this where we have to decide to obey God or sin and lie that we see just how much we really trust Him. It reminds me of the story of David and his friends. They stuck to God and never lied to get out of the trouble the Babylonian officials were always trying to get them into. It would have been very easy to lie but they didn't, and God saved them. However we have to be like they were and decide ahead of time that obeying God is more important to us regardless of whether or not He saves us. That's why I've always loved this statement they made to the King during one of those times: Daniel 3:17-18 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” I hope and pray that I can grow up to be that strong and mature in my faith! |
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| How about Rahab and Michal and David. All told lies. As did the prophet who led the armies away from their correct destination. ( I'l try to find it if the story doesn't come to mind) Rahab lied about the spies. Michal lied about David. Both to save lives. David lied when running from Saul and took and ate the shewbread. I am not defending lieing just wondering if it is permissible. |
Is God a liar then? Does He really go against His own Word? If it ok for us to lie under some circumstances then we might as well just throw the bible in the trash because it's useless as it doesn't tell the truth if it contradicts itself. I'm just going to quote some commentaries so people will see that it's not just me saying this. Joshua 2:4-6 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them.” (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.)
Was Rahab wrong to lie since her falsehood protected the spies? Are there some situations in which a lie is acceptable?
After all, some say, this was a cultural matter, for Rahab was born and raised among the depraved Canaanites among whom lying was universally practiced. She probably saw no evil in her act. Further, if she had told the truth the spies would have been killed by the king of Jericho.
But such arguments are not convincing. To argue that the spies would certainly have perished if Rahab had been truthful is to ignore the option that God could have protected the spies in some other way. To excuse Rahab for indulging in a common practice is to condone what God condemns. Paul quoted a prophet of Crete who said that Cretans were inveterate liars, and then added, ”This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith“ (Titus 1:13). The lie of Rahab was recorded but not approved. The Bible approved her faith demonstrated by good works (Heb. 11:31),but not her falsehood.
The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures 2:5I do not know:The NT commends Rahab for her faith, not her falsehood (see Heb. 11:31). James mentions her together with Abraham as an example of good works (see James 2:25). The Open Bible
But the visit also meant the salvation of Rahab and her family. Although the Bible does not commend Rahab for her lies, it does commend her faith (Heb. 11:31) that revealed itself in works (James 2:25). Her faith saved her and her family from destruction (Josh. 6:17–19), and it resulted in her becoming an ancestress of the Messiah (Matt. 1:5). Once you begin to trust God and obey Him, you never know what He will do!
With the word Bible commentary 2:4 Lying is never justifiable; but in this case, because of Rahab’s immature faith, it is understandable.
Spirit filled life study Bible First, Rahab was a pagan woman living in a pagan society. The degree of ethical consciousness displayed by the early Phoenicians and Caneanites was very low indeed. No doubt Rahab was absolutely unaware that telling this lie was a sin. She was humanly no more concerned over this falsehood than she was over her own occupation. Secondly, nowhere do we find a reference that either the spies, or later Joshua, ever condoned this lie. A lie by any other name, even if it is little and white, is nevertheless a lie. The spies did not ask Rahab to lie for them, nor did they commend her for this action. Thirdly, although there appears to be seedlike faith in Rahab, nevertheless there is no clear reference to her faith in the true God of Israel until after the lie was told. The deception, which was almost matter-of-factly and routinely carried out, was not at all ethically troublesome to Rahab before her confession of faith in Jehovah. One can only assume that the situation would have been different after that confession. KJV Bible commentary.
1 Samuel 21:1-3 David went to Nob, to Ahimelech the priest. Ahimelech trembled when he met him, and asked, “Why are you alone? Why is no one with you?” David answered Ahimelech the priest, “The king charged me with a certain matter and said to me, ‘No one is to know anything about your mission and your instructions.’ As for my men, I have told them to meet me at a certain place. Now then, what do you have on hand? Give me five loaves of bread, or whatever you can find.”
The king hath commanded me a business, and hath said unto me, Let no man know—This was a direct falsehood, extorted through fear. David probably supposed, like many other persons, that a lie is quite excusable which is told for the sole purpose of saving the speaker’s life. But what is essentially sinful, can never, from circumstances, change its immoral character; and David had to repent of this vice of lying (Ps 119:29). Psalm 119:29-30 Keep me from deceitful ways; be gracious to me through your law. I have chosen the way of truth; I have set my heart on your laws. A commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments.
Deception. It is disappointing to see David depending on lies for protection. He lied to the priest and to the king, but he could not lie to Doeg: “For the sons of this world are more shrewd in their generation than the sons of light” (Luke 16:8). Whenever you think you have “pulled off” a smart deal, you will find a Doeg ready to give you trouble (1 Sam. 22:9ff.; see also Ps. 52).
“Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who deal truthfully are His delight” (Prov. 12:22).
Is It Ever Right to Lie?
Scripture commands us to tell the truth and warns about the consequences of lying. Jesus is our example, for there was no deceit in His mouth (1 Pet. 2:22). We must always speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15). If our telling the truth endangers others, silence is our best response. When David ran ahead of God, he found himself in trouble and lied. The safest thing is to stay away from those situations and to pray, “Lead us not into temptation.”
With the word Bible commentary.
And this commentary points out the consequences of David's sin of lying:
David resorted to deception at this point is not clear. He may have responded in panic either to get Ahimelech to supply his needs and/or to protect the priest from later accusations concerning knowledge of David’s flight. The brief mention of Doeg anticipated his future merciless role (1 Sam. 22:18, 19). In the twisted mind of the rejected king the presence of David at Nob and the help Ahimelech gave David seemed a conspiracy against the king (1 Sam. 22:8, 13, 16, 17). With total contempt for the priesthood, Saul called for death of the priests (1 Sam. 22:16–18). His Israelite servants refused such a heinous order, but there was no hesitancy on the part of the Edomite, Doeg (1 Sam. 20:18), who extended the massacre to all Nob as a city under the ban (see 1 Sam. 15:3, note). This was a further fulfillment of the prophecy against Eli’s house (1 Sam. 2:31–33; 4:11, 18; 1 Kin. 2:26, 27). When David learned of the disaster through its only survivor, Abiathar, he confessed that he was ultimately responsible for it. This is a tragic example of how sin affects others. David assured Abiathar safety because David was sure of divine protection (1 Sam. 22:23)
1 Samuel 22:20-23 But Abiathar, a son of Ahimelech son of Ahitub, escaped and fled to join David. He told David that Saul had killed the priests of the Lord. Then David said to Abiathar: “That day, when Doeg the Edomite was there, I knew he would be sure to tell Saul. I am responsible for the death of your father’s whole family. Stay with me; don’t be afraid; the man who is seeking your life is seeking mine also. You will be safe with me.”
Woman's study Bible
There are actually many more instances of lying in the bible. Just as there are many instances of adultery, idolatry and every other sin. I seriously doubt any of us would say that adultery was ok in certain circumstances or attempt to say that God thinks it is either. Why then do we attempt to say so about lying? One of the things atheists love to say is that God approves of polygamy because that's in the bible. Well I'm sorry to let them down, but God doesn't approve it it either. Yes, it's in the bible, just like lying, adultery, stealing, idolatry, and murder, but God approves of no sin for any reason. The people in the Bible however are human just like we are and they all sinned-every single last one of them, just as we do. That is what the bible records, God doesn't approve of any sin.
