Let's look at another similar verse, again I want to post it in context though, so I'll underline the one I'm talking about:
Galatians 5:1–8, It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.
The entire book of Galatians is all about not going back into the slavery of trying to earn your salvation through the law or anything else for that matter. Remember that again the apostle is talking mainly to Jews. Paul isn't telling us that anyone who is circumcised is lost. Like Jesus taught, Paul is trying to get them to see it's what's in their hearts that matters. If they (or we) are being circumcised (or baptized or anything else) thinking that it will save us, then we are going down the wrong path. When we do that, we're turning away from our salvation and once again trying to earn our way to heaven or prove our worthiness. The "Truth" that Paul is referring to is the Truth that salvation is through Christ alone and is a gift to us. We can't earn it or buy it, and no matter how perfectly we live our lives, before or afterward, we can never ever be good enough to warrant it.
Paul was fighting against false teachers that had invaded the church. These were proud Jews who are referred to as Judaizers and they taught that what Moses began in the old covenant and Christ added in the new covenant had to be finished and perfected by our own efforts, in particularly by circumcision. This is very much like what the catholic church does today in it's way.
Back in the days of the early church, remember too that these people had seen and/or experienced some pretty amazing miracles done by the apostles so it was very tempting to hang around the Christians and be part of them and profess faith in Christ. However, being Jewish it was also very difficult for them to put aside a lifetime of learning about the law. These people were ripe for the false teachers! In fact they remind me very much of what Jesus talked about in the parable of the sower, remember?
Matthew 13:20–21, The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
Notice those words, "falls away" again? So what Paul is telling these folks that are torn between following Christ and following the law is that they cannot have it both ways. Christ alone saves, period. Just because they go to church and say the right things isn't going to help them in the long run. If they return to the law, even just to circumcision in order to be saved, then they have rejected salvation in Christ, and have placed themselves under the obligation of the law again. According to the law, when you place yourself under it, it means you are obligated to keep the entire law and that if you break the smallest of the laws you're as guilty as if you broke them all. Paul is reminding them of that in hopes that they'll realize again how totally hopeless it is and that the only way they can really be saved is through Christ. Paul was contrasting the way of grace vs law, and/or faith vs works, as the means of salvation.
We know that Paul and all the apostles taught that salvation was a free gift and through Christ alone. We know they said it couldn't be lost. We can see from all this that the people who are doing this weren't ever really saved. They had been exposed to the faith, they had been told about salvation, they'd seen the miracles confirming it's truth, and they understood what was being said. But they just couldn't get past their fear that "what if/maybe we need to do this other too". Again it reminds me of the catholic church and the hold they have on many people through fear. That's why Paul called it slavery and bondage. So these folks are what the bible refers to as apostates. The very same kind of people that Hebrews 6 talks about. People who have been exposed to the truth of the Gospel and then knowingly turn their backs on Christ. That's the definition of an apostate. Just like the people in Hebrews 6, these people had been part of this church and had witnessed Christ's ministry in the lives of all the other believers there, but then refused Christ alone. That's what "tasted of the heavenly gift" and "shared in the Holy Spirit" and tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age is talking about. Notice once again the words, "fall away" in this passage as well.
Hebrews 6:4–6, It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
As John MacArthur puts it: "They came to the very doorway of grace and then fell away, back into their works-oriented religion."
There's one other thing though that I think is really important about this. I think many of us at one point or another worry that we have somehow done this ourselves, and we wonder if we can still be saved or if we ever really were. I know that I went through this myself. Well there's one easy way to tell if you've done this or not. Notice that Paul says it's impossible for them to be brought back to what? To repentance. So what is repentance? Remember this verse about it?
2 Corinthians 7:10–11, Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.
So repentance is a godly sorry that before we're saved brings us to salvation and after we're saved produces an eagerness to clear ourselves, to be free of sin, and concern that we might have sin or that we have sinned.
You see, someone who is apostate doesn't feel godly sorrow about it. They don't long for salvation. Instead their sinful nature usually prides itself on being followers of the law or how good they are by themselves etc. They don't have doubts or remorse or alarm about what's happened. Nor do they desire to change it. So if we've done something that we think might put us in this category, but we are feeling just awful about it, who or what do you think is making us feel awful? Our sin nature? hardly! It's the Holy Spirit and the only way the Holy Spirit can be making us feel that way is if He is dwelling within us! Therefore you can be sure you haven't committed this sin if you're feeling godly sorrow.
If we are longing to be restored and be in communion with Jesus again then that's a sure sign that the Holy Spirit is at work in us restoring us at this very moment. We can then know that all that happened was that we fell out of fellowship, that we stopped "abiding in Him" or weren't "remaining in Him" during that time and that now the Holy Spirit is helping to restore us so that we can once again abide in Him. Or to put it another way, so we will once again be plugged into the source--Jesus!
Bible Studies, Friends and Fellowship
Sunday, March 6, 2011
Re: Saved?
Yvonne said:
Could someone please Explain this Scripture? Heb 6.4 Yes I can hon, but I've done a bible study on it already and even posted some other good ones on it. Let me give you a link to that and then I'll try and give you a "short answer". This is exactly the kind of question I was hoping someone would ask on the saved bible study thread. LOL
Falling Away? A Study Of Hebrews 6
Ok, to be honest, this is/can be such a difficult passage to explain adequately in a few words, at least for me lol, and I'm pretty tired right now, so I'm just going to post what some commentaries say for you here. For more info please go to the link I provided ok? And then if it's ok with you, I can merge this with the bible study thread, saved, and we can continue it there when I'm more up to it tomorrow ok?
Keep in mind the rules to studying the bible: it must be read in context with the book/chapter and the whole bible and the bible never contradicts itself; when it seems to we look to the rest of the bible for the answers.
Though a cursory look at this text might lead one to think that Christians can lose their salvation, that idea is not the issue. These verses instead speak of the need for believers to persevere in the Christian faith. The verbs “enlightened” (v. 4), “tasted” (vv. 4–5), and “became companions” (v. 4) describe persons who have professed Christ and claim to be believers. To “have fallen away” (v. 6) means to commit apostasy. The writer of Heb admonished his readers not to go back to the OT sacrificial system because Jesus is superior to it in every way. If they were to turn away from Christ, repentance would be impossible because it cannot be found anywhere else once Jesus is rejected (10:26–27). By their actions, such persons disgrace Christ openly and try to re-crucify Him. If they forsake faith in Christ after having professed it and go back (i.e., do not persevere), they never were actually saved to begin with (see Mt 10:22; Mk 13:13).
The Apologetics Study Bible: Real Questions, Straight Answers, Stronger Faith
6:4–6. This passage does not teach that one can lose his salvation through disbelief or apostasy. These verses refer to a hypothetical situation whereby the author stresses what would happen to a saved person if he could fall away. The author does not believe one can lose his salvation, or that his readers had (cf. v. 9); but he so speaks to demonstrate the folly some might have in imagining that they can turn back to Judaism without suffering loss. Though the author is not writing about his readers (v. 4, those), he still is writing for their sakes (v. 9, you). If they shall fall away is the translation given to the fifth participle of the passage. This is a legitimate and even common grammatical usage by the author within the warning passages (cf. 2:3; 10:26; and even 6:8). The first four participles refer to actual blessings whereas number five describes a potential situation, and so can be translated unlike the first four.
The important point about Hebrews 6 is that it agrees with the general tenor of Scripture concerning the security of the born-again believer. One basis for the security of the believer involves the promises recorded in God’s Word (vv. 18–20; 7:24, 25; 8:12; 10:10–14; John 10:28–30; Rom. 8:28–39; Eph. 1:13, 14; 4:30; Phil. 1:6; 1 John 5:13). Yet, an even stronger basis for security is found within the nature of the new life God gives. Though conversion involves man’s will, it is God’s will that produces regeneration (John 1:13). Thus, salvation is infinitely more than a decision that one can make and then break. It is the work of God that transforms one from darkness to light (1 Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:13), from death to life (John 5:24), from a child of the Devil to a son of God (Rom. 8:14–17). It is a completed, regenerating work (10:14; Eph. 2:8—“You are saved,” or “You have been saved and stand saved”—Greek perfect tense).
King James Version study Bible
The author of Hebrews does not suggest in these verses that apostasy or falling from salvation is possible. Rather, he provides the strongest possible argument for the impossibility of reinstatement to salvation if one were to fall. The hypothetical spiritual experiences about which the author speaks are clearly those of a genuine believer. Enlightenment is followed by tasting the heavenly gift and sharing in the Holy Spirit. Even the powers of the coming age have been experienced by these Christians. Indeed, the initial phrase of v. 6 could be translated “and having fallen beside.” Again the case is hypothetical, referring to the biblical truth that if one could fall from salvation, he could never be saved again. The fact that there is no thought of an actual forfeiture of salvation may be seen elsewhere in Hebrews (cf. 6:19; 10:14), as well as throughout the remainder of the N.T. (cf. Eph. 4:30; 2 Tim. 1:12; Jude 24). Actually the author of Hebrews is confident in the profession of the recipients of his epistle, as is indicated by v. 9.
Believer's Study Bible.
The explanation even in most of my commentaries is very long and involved as this is an important passage so again it would be better for you to read that study and then I'll merge this and we can discuss it tomorrow ok?
Falling Away? A Study Of Hebrews 6
Ok, to be honest, this is/can be such a difficult passage to explain adequately in a few words, at least for me lol, and I'm pretty tired right now, so I'm just going to post what some commentaries say for you here. For more info please go to the link I provided ok? And then if it's ok with you, I can merge this with the bible study thread, saved, and we can continue it there when I'm more up to it tomorrow ok?
Keep in mind the rules to studying the bible: it must be read in context with the book/chapter and the whole bible and the bible never contradicts itself; when it seems to we look to the rest of the bible for the answers.
Though a cursory look at this text might lead one to think that Christians can lose their salvation, that idea is not the issue. These verses instead speak of the need for believers to persevere in the Christian faith. The verbs “enlightened” (v. 4), “tasted” (vv. 4–5), and “became companions” (v. 4) describe persons who have professed Christ and claim to be believers. To “have fallen away” (v. 6) means to commit apostasy. The writer of Heb admonished his readers not to go back to the OT sacrificial system because Jesus is superior to it in every way. If they were to turn away from Christ, repentance would be impossible because it cannot be found anywhere else once Jesus is rejected (10:26–27). By their actions, such persons disgrace Christ openly and try to re-crucify Him. If they forsake faith in Christ after having professed it and go back (i.e., do not persevere), they never were actually saved to begin with (see Mt 10:22; Mk 13:13).
The Apologetics Study Bible: Real Questions, Straight Answers, Stronger Faith
6:4–6. This passage does not teach that one can lose his salvation through disbelief or apostasy. These verses refer to a hypothetical situation whereby the author stresses what would happen to a saved person if he could fall away. The author does not believe one can lose his salvation, or that his readers had (cf. v. 9); but he so speaks to demonstrate the folly some might have in imagining that they can turn back to Judaism without suffering loss. Though the author is not writing about his readers (v. 4, those), he still is writing for their sakes (v. 9, you). If they shall fall away is the translation given to the fifth participle of the passage. This is a legitimate and even common grammatical usage by the author within the warning passages (cf. 2:3; 10:26; and even 6:8). The first four participles refer to actual blessings whereas number five describes a potential situation, and so can be translated unlike the first four.
The important point about Hebrews 6 is that it agrees with the general tenor of Scripture concerning the security of the born-again believer. One basis for the security of the believer involves the promises recorded in God’s Word (vv. 18–20; 7:24, 25; 8:12; 10:10–14; John 10:28–30; Rom. 8:28–39; Eph. 1:13, 14; 4:30; Phil. 1:6; 1 John 5:13). Yet, an even stronger basis for security is found within the nature of the new life God gives. Though conversion involves man’s will, it is God’s will that produces regeneration (John 1:13). Thus, salvation is infinitely more than a decision that one can make and then break. It is the work of God that transforms one from darkness to light (1 Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:13), from death to life (John 5:24), from a child of the Devil to a son of God (Rom. 8:14–17). It is a completed, regenerating work (10:14; Eph. 2:8—“You are saved,” or “You have been saved and stand saved”—Greek perfect tense).
King James Version study Bible
The author of Hebrews does not suggest in these verses that apostasy or falling from salvation is possible. Rather, he provides the strongest possible argument for the impossibility of reinstatement to salvation if one were to fall. The hypothetical spiritual experiences about which the author speaks are clearly those of a genuine believer. Enlightenment is followed by tasting the heavenly gift and sharing in the Holy Spirit. Even the powers of the coming age have been experienced by these Christians. Indeed, the initial phrase of v. 6 could be translated “and having fallen beside.” Again the case is hypothetical, referring to the biblical truth that if one could fall from salvation, he could never be saved again. The fact that there is no thought of an actual forfeiture of salvation may be seen elsewhere in Hebrews (cf. 6:19; 10:14), as well as throughout the remainder of the N.T. (cf. Eph. 4:30; 2 Tim. 1:12; Jude 24). Actually the author of Hebrews is confident in the profession of the recipients of his epistle, as is indicated by v. 9.
Believer's Study Bible.
The explanation even in most of my commentaries is very long and involved as this is an important passage so again it would be better for you to read that study and then I'll merge this and we can discuss it tomorrow ok?
Re: Saved?
Quote:
| Originally Posted by yvonne2u2  Sanctification is the consequence of justification and is dependent upon a person being in a right relationship with God Could you further elaborate for me the statement above. I have heard a lot of different things in regards to Sanctification, but don't understand it a whole lot. |
Basically justification is when we are declared holy by God at our salvation; and sanctification is what happens after we've been justified and is when we work out our salvation like that verse tells us to, putting what we've learned in God's Word into practice in our lives and therefore living righteously.
DEFINITION OF JUSTIFICATION: Being declared righteous by God.
The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology defines justification as “to pronounce, accept, and treat as [righteous], and not . . . liable, and, on the other hand, entitled to all the privileges due to those who have kept the laws.” It declares a “verdict of acquittal, and so excluding all possibility of condemnation. Justification thus settles the legal status of the person justified.” It makes a person, as has been commonly said, “just as if I’d never sinned.”
CENTRAL PASSAGE:
Romans 5:1, Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
DEFINITION OF SANCTIFICATION: The process of spiritual growth toward the character image of Christ.
CENTRAL PASSAGE:
1 Thessalonians 4:3, It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality;
Perhaps the central passage in Scripture that describes this process is
Philippians 2:12–13, Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
30 days to understanding the Christian life in 15 minutes a day
Does that help?
Re: Saved?
Sure, I used to get really confused by all the various terms too! First let me address what your friend said. I believe what she was referring to is this passage:
1 Corinthians 7:13–17, And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife? Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches.
Ok, to really understand what he's saying here we need to first understand what the word sanctify means:
Sanctification is one of several possible English translations of qdš, hagios and their cognates. See *HOLINESS for usage. Context alone determines whether the translation should be holy, holiness, holy one, saints, consecrate, consecration, sanctify or sanctification. Even in individual passages translators do not always agree. Its broad meaning is the process by which an entity is brought into relationship with or attains the likeness of the holy....
....Sanctification occurs as a consequence of movement towards the Holy One, not as the basis for holiness.
New Bible dictionary
DEFINITION OF SANCTIFICATION: The process of spiritual growth toward the character image of Christ. ...Sanctification must be understood in two ways from its use in Scripture. There is positional sanctification, which means we are permanently “set apart” for God. That happened when we were born again; it is now complete and needs no further action (Acts 26:18). Then there is progressive sanctification, which is the moral and spiritual renewal, growth, and renovation whereby we are changed more and more into the character image of Christ. ...
....sanctification requires a mutual interplay between the initiating work of God and the responding work of man (even though man’s response, his willingness to respond, and his ability to respond are gifts of the Holy Spirit). Perhaps the central passage in Scripture that describes this process is Philippians 2:12–13, Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
30 days to understanding the Christian life in 15 minutes a day
OK, now let's look at the passage in context. Paul was talking about whether or not someone who was now a Christian should divorce their spouse if the spouse wasn't a believer. Remember in their culture they were accustomed to the idea that God has set apart the Jews and didn't want them intermarrying with those of other religions and/or cultures. They knew God had called them to be separate. So now they were wondering if now God wanted them to further separate themselves, since they also understood that it was a sin for a Christian to marry someone that wasn't a Christian. They were basically saying, "but we're already married so now what do I do?" To answer their question, Paul told them that as long as their spouse was agreeable to remaining married to them that they should stay in the marriage. To encourage them he explained that by staying in the marriage they would be sanctifying their unbelieving spouse and children.
Generally sanctification is used in relation to someone who's been saved so it's easy to misinterpret this that way. That's why you have to remember the other rule of studying the Bible. You don't interpret the bible, the bible interprets itself, and it never contradicts itself. When it seems to do so, as in this example, then the answer is to discover what else the Bible says on the subject matter.
I can assure you that nowhere in the bible, old or new testament, can anyone be saved in any way except through faith in Jesus. The only difference between salvation in the old testament and the new is that in the old testament people were saved by faith that God would send the Messiah to take care of the problem of sin, they just didn't know what His name would be. In the New Testament, we know His Name. But both were saved by faith in Christ. So we can know for sure that this passage is not saying that your spouse or children can be saved by you. They too must come to Christ.
If it's not saying that, then what is it saying? Well the easiest way to determine that is to again let the bible speak for itself. In the Old Testament when God declared someone or something "holy" or when He sanctified someone or something (means basically the same thing) He taught that if someone or something else came in contact with whatever He had sanctified, that person or thing also became "holy" or "sanctified". Not saved-just sanctified, holy. It did get pretty complicated but that's the basic idea. Here's a passage that describes this:
Haggai 2:11–13, “This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Ask the priests what the law says: If a person carries consecrated meat in the fold of his garment, and that fold touches some bread or stew, some wine, oil or other food, does it become consecrated?’ ” The priests answered, “No.” Then Haggai said, “If a person defiled by contact with a dead body touches one of these things, does it become defiled?” “Yes,” the priests replied, “it becomes defiled.”
Consecrated meat was meat set apart for a specific sacrificial purpose (cf. Lev. 6:25; Num. 6:20). While the garment that might contain such meat would also be holy (cf. Lev. 6:27), that holiness of the garment could not be transferred to bread … stew … wine, oil, or any other food. But this is not true of ritual defilement, as indicated by the priests’ positive reply to Haggai’s question regarding the transmission of ritual uncleanness (Hag. 2:13). A person’s ceremonial defilement (e.g., by contact with a dead body) is as transferable to other things as is a contagious disease (cf. Lev. 11:28; 22:4-7).
The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures
The part about defilement doesn't apply to the Christian married to a non Christian spouse because the Christian is like the firstfruits offering and is holy, therefore making the whole "batch" of their family holy.
Romans 11:16, If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Ezekiel 44:30, The best of all the firstfruits and of all your special gifts will belong to the priests. You are to give them the first portion of your ground meal so that a blessing may rest on your household.
James 1:18, He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
So what this all means is simply that God blesses the unsaved in the household because of the saved person. (Look at how He blessed Potiphar and all of Egypt even because of Joseph!) Because they both see how the believing person lives their life and they see the blessings from that persons life, they are more likely to become saved.
So in this passage sanctification doesn't refer to their personal standing but rather to the sanctity of the marriage itself and to the fact that the Christian will be a constant witness to them of God's reality and of the Gospel and of His blessings. Paul wanted to make sure that none of the Christians used their salvation as an excuse to dump their spouse as that wouldn't have been a good witness to the spouse. (remember, in the old testament, God did demand that the Israelites that had married outside their culture get rid of their foreign wives and children. Ezra 9:1-Ezra 10:17)
Now with that out of the way we can go on to the other part of your question. I'll do that in my next post. I hope this helped!
1 Corinthians 7:13–17, And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife? Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches.
Ok, to really understand what he's saying here we need to first understand what the word sanctify means:
Sanctification is one of several possible English translations of qdš, hagios and their cognates. See *HOLINESS for usage. Context alone determines whether the translation should be holy, holiness, holy one, saints, consecrate, consecration, sanctify or sanctification. Even in individual passages translators do not always agree. Its broad meaning is the process by which an entity is brought into relationship with or attains the likeness of the holy....
....Sanctification occurs as a consequence of movement towards the Holy One, not as the basis for holiness.
New Bible dictionary
DEFINITION OF SANCTIFICATION: The process of spiritual growth toward the character image of Christ. ...Sanctification must be understood in two ways from its use in Scripture. There is positional sanctification, which means we are permanently “set apart” for God. That happened when we were born again; it is now complete and needs no further action (Acts 26:18). Then there is progressive sanctification, which is the moral and spiritual renewal, growth, and renovation whereby we are changed more and more into the character image of Christ. ...
....sanctification requires a mutual interplay between the initiating work of God and the responding work of man (even though man’s response, his willingness to respond, and his ability to respond are gifts of the Holy Spirit). Perhaps the central passage in Scripture that describes this process is Philippians 2:12–13, Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
30 days to understanding the Christian life in 15 minutes a day
OK, now let's look at the passage in context. Paul was talking about whether or not someone who was now a Christian should divorce their spouse if the spouse wasn't a believer. Remember in their culture they were accustomed to the idea that God has set apart the Jews and didn't want them intermarrying with those of other religions and/or cultures. They knew God had called them to be separate. So now they were wondering if now God wanted them to further separate themselves, since they also understood that it was a sin for a Christian to marry someone that wasn't a Christian. They were basically saying, "but we're already married so now what do I do?" To answer their question, Paul told them that as long as their spouse was agreeable to remaining married to them that they should stay in the marriage. To encourage them he explained that by staying in the marriage they would be sanctifying their unbelieving spouse and children.
Generally sanctification is used in relation to someone who's been saved so it's easy to misinterpret this that way. That's why you have to remember the other rule of studying the Bible. You don't interpret the bible, the bible interprets itself, and it never contradicts itself. When it seems to do so, as in this example, then the answer is to discover what else the Bible says on the subject matter.
I can assure you that nowhere in the bible, old or new testament, can anyone be saved in any way except through faith in Jesus. The only difference between salvation in the old testament and the new is that in the old testament people were saved by faith that God would send the Messiah to take care of the problem of sin, they just didn't know what His name would be. In the New Testament, we know His Name. But both were saved by faith in Christ. So we can know for sure that this passage is not saying that your spouse or children can be saved by you. They too must come to Christ.
If it's not saying that, then what is it saying? Well the easiest way to determine that is to again let the bible speak for itself. In the Old Testament when God declared someone or something "holy" or when He sanctified someone or something (means basically the same thing) He taught that if someone or something else came in contact with whatever He had sanctified, that person or thing also became "holy" or "sanctified". Not saved-just sanctified, holy. It did get pretty complicated but that's the basic idea. Here's a passage that describes this:
Haggai 2:11–13, “This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Ask the priests what the law says: If a person carries consecrated meat in the fold of his garment, and that fold touches some bread or stew, some wine, oil or other food, does it become consecrated?’ ” The priests answered, “No.” Then Haggai said, “If a person defiled by contact with a dead body touches one of these things, does it become defiled?” “Yes,” the priests replied, “it becomes defiled.”
Consecrated meat was meat set apart for a specific sacrificial purpose (cf. Lev. 6:25; Num. 6:20). While the garment that might contain such meat would also be holy (cf. Lev. 6:27), that holiness of the garment could not be transferred to bread … stew … wine, oil, or any other food. But this is not true of ritual defilement, as indicated by the priests’ positive reply to Haggai’s question regarding the transmission of ritual uncleanness (Hag. 2:13). A person’s ceremonial defilement (e.g., by contact with a dead body) is as transferable to other things as is a contagious disease (cf. Lev. 11:28; 22:4-7).
The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures
The part about defilement doesn't apply to the Christian married to a non Christian spouse because the Christian is like the firstfruits offering and is holy, therefore making the whole "batch" of their family holy.
Romans 11:16, If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Ezekiel 44:30, The best of all the firstfruits and of all your special gifts will belong to the priests. You are to give them the first portion of your ground meal so that a blessing may rest on your household.
James 1:18, He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
So what this all means is simply that God blesses the unsaved in the household because of the saved person. (Look at how He blessed Potiphar and all of Egypt even because of Joseph!) Because they both see how the believing person lives their life and they see the blessings from that persons life, they are more likely to become saved.
So in this passage sanctification doesn't refer to their personal standing but rather to the sanctity of the marriage itself and to the fact that the Christian will be a constant witness to them of God's reality and of the Gospel and of His blessings. Paul wanted to make sure that none of the Christians used their salvation as an excuse to dump their spouse as that wouldn't have been a good witness to the spouse. (remember, in the old testament, God did demand that the Israelites that had married outside their culture get rid of their foreign wives and children. Ezra 9:1-Ezra 10:17)
Now with that out of the way we can go on to the other part of your question. I'll do that in my next post. I hope this helped!
Re: Saved?
Today I'd like to talk about another verse that sometimes throws us for a loop:
Philippians 2:12–13, Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
As always we need to take into consideration what was being said prior to this. He was talking to them about their attitudes toward each other and what was going on there. He then pointed out that Jesus had humbled Himself and been obedient which is what we are also to do. It's at that point the word "therefore" comes in. So Paul is basically saying, "Since Jesus humbled Himself and thought of others first and was obedient to God, and as you have also always obeyed, continue to do this to work out your salvation."
Now, what did he mean when he said "work out" your salvation? Let me see if I can give you an everyday kind of example. Ok, this is going to be a pretty pathetic example but it's all I can think of right now
Let's say I give you a gym complete with every workout machine there is. It now belongs to you. It's in your name and no one can ever take it away from you. You own it. Now, you can let that gym sit there and collect dust, or you can use it. I gave it to you because I obviously want you to use it. I want you to work out (sorry for the pun lol) your body so that it's all it can be. (told you it was pretty pathetic lol)
Now the Lord gives us our salvation for free. It's a gift to us. It's completely free, BUT He wants us to use it! His purpose for us is to do good works as He grows us up into the likeness of His Son.
Ephesians 2:8–10, For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
2 Corinthians 3:18, And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
This again is the difference between those who have been saved and do nothing with it-they continue to live worldly lives and those who have been saved and live for God being obedient to Him as He wants us to be. We are not all going to wake up someday being just like Jesus; God isn't going to just magically make us all like Him at some point after our salvation. No, that comes from good old fashioned hard work and obedience. Which is what Paul was saying to them. Just as Jesus was obedient, so we need to be obedient and put into practice in our daily life what we are learning from the Lord.
That part I underlined is what the words "work out" means in this verse. So what Paul is saying is to take what they know and use it! Don't just mouth the words, don't keep it as just head knowledge, make it heart knowledge and use it in your life. The verb “work out” carries the meaning of “work to full completion,” and that "completion he's talking about is being just like Jesus. We aren't being told to "work for" our salvation, but rather to put into practice in our daily lives what God has been working in us by His Spirit. In other words, we are to work out the salvation to it's ultimate conclusion of Christlikeness that the Lord has already given us. The bible calls this process "sanctification".
So you can see our salvation should really be viewed in all three tenses:
past, justification; --this is what Christ did when He died and rose again for us. Let me post the actual definition:
The acquittal, or declaration of being righteous, before God as judge. It is a central aspect of Paul’s understanding of what God achieved for believers through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Zondervan Dictionary of Bible Themes.
present, sanctification; This is when through abiding in Christ, in our personal relationship with God, we live righteously allowing the Holy Spirit to constantly renew us, constantly making us righteous and holy.
The process of renewal and consecration by which believers are made holy through the work of the Holy Spirit. Sanctification is the consequence of justification and is dependent upon a person being in a right relationship with God. Zondervan Dictionary of Bible Themes.
and future, glorification. (when our salvation is complete and we are glorified with Christ at the rapture)
This is why the the apostles were constantly teaching about the rapture and telling us to look forward to it, because that is when our salvation will be made complete. It is then that we will receive the new body to go with the new spirit we received when we were first saved. It is then that we will finally be forever rid of our old nature so we will no longer have to fight with sin. So after the rapture there will still be different kinds of Christians. We'll all have our new body etc and all will be saved, but some of us, those who were obedient and studying His Word and put it into practice will be fully matured and be ready to reign with Christ for the next 1000 years. Others will be saved but still be "infants" in Christ because they did nothing with their salvation. They didn't "work it out" in their lives and they weren't obedient. So they won't be reigning with Christ. They will be given something to do that's in line with how much they've learned (which is pretty much nothing). There will indeed be weeping when they realize just how much they messed up when they let the opportunities of their earthly life slip away without working out their salvation. Then there will be those that are at just about every stage between being mature and being infants. They too will be rewarded based on how much they worked out their salvation while they were here.
I talked more about this in this study: What will we feel when we finally stand before Him?
Philippians 2:12–13, Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
As always we need to take into consideration what was being said prior to this. He was talking to them about their attitudes toward each other and what was going on there. He then pointed out that Jesus had humbled Himself and been obedient which is what we are also to do. It's at that point the word "therefore" comes in. So Paul is basically saying, "Since Jesus humbled Himself and thought of others first and was obedient to God, and as you have also always obeyed, continue to do this to work out your salvation."
Now, what did he mean when he said "work out" your salvation? Let me see if I can give you an everyday kind of example. Ok, this is going to be a pretty pathetic example but it's all I can think of right now
Let's say I give you a gym complete with every workout machine there is. It now belongs to you. It's in your name and no one can ever take it away from you. You own it. Now, you can let that gym sit there and collect dust, or you can use it. I gave it to you because I obviously want you to use it. I want you to work out (sorry for the pun lol) your body so that it's all it can be. (told you it was pretty pathetic lol) Now the Lord gives us our salvation for free. It's a gift to us. It's completely free, BUT He wants us to use it! His purpose for us is to do good works as He grows us up into the likeness of His Son.
Ephesians 2:8–10, For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
2 Corinthians 3:18, And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
This again is the difference between those who have been saved and do nothing with it-they continue to live worldly lives and those who have been saved and live for God being obedient to Him as He wants us to be. We are not all going to wake up someday being just like Jesus; God isn't going to just magically make us all like Him at some point after our salvation. No, that comes from good old fashioned hard work and obedience. Which is what Paul was saying to them. Just as Jesus was obedient, so we need to be obedient and put into practice in our daily life what we are learning from the Lord.
That part I underlined is what the words "work out" means in this verse. So what Paul is saying is to take what they know and use it! Don't just mouth the words, don't keep it as just head knowledge, make it heart knowledge and use it in your life. The verb “work out” carries the meaning of “work to full completion,” and that "completion he's talking about is being just like Jesus. We aren't being told to "work for" our salvation, but rather to put into practice in our daily lives what God has been working in us by His Spirit. In other words, we are to work out the salvation to it's ultimate conclusion of Christlikeness that the Lord has already given us. The bible calls this process "sanctification".
So you can see our salvation should really be viewed in all three tenses:
past, justification; --this is what Christ did when He died and rose again for us. Let me post the actual definition:
The acquittal, or declaration of being righteous, before God as judge. It is a central aspect of Paul’s understanding of what God achieved for believers through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Zondervan Dictionary of Bible Themes.
present, sanctification; This is when through abiding in Christ, in our personal relationship with God, we live righteously allowing the Holy Spirit to constantly renew us, constantly making us righteous and holy.
The process of renewal and consecration by which believers are made holy through the work of the Holy Spirit. Sanctification is the consequence of justification and is dependent upon a person being in a right relationship with God. Zondervan Dictionary of Bible Themes.
and future, glorification. (when our salvation is complete and we are glorified with Christ at the rapture)
This is why the the apostles were constantly teaching about the rapture and telling us to look forward to it, because that is when our salvation will be made complete. It is then that we will receive the new body to go with the new spirit we received when we were first saved. It is then that we will finally be forever rid of our old nature so we will no longer have to fight with sin. So after the rapture there will still be different kinds of Christians. We'll all have our new body etc and all will be saved, but some of us, those who were obedient and studying His Word and put it into practice will be fully matured and be ready to reign with Christ for the next 1000 years. Others will be saved but still be "infants" in Christ because they did nothing with their salvation. They didn't "work it out" in their lives and they weren't obedient. So they won't be reigning with Christ. They will be given something to do that's in line with how much they've learned (which is pretty much nothing). There will indeed be weeping when they realize just how much they messed up when they let the opportunities of their earthly life slip away without working out their salvation. Then there will be those that are at just about every stage between being mature and being infants. They too will be rewarded based on how much they worked out their salvation while they were here.
I talked more about this in this study: What will we feel when we finally stand before Him?
Re: Saved?
I'd like to cover a couple of things about our salvation today if there's time, but if not, I'll just finish up tomorrow. First is the parable of the Sower that Jesus tells, because it explains exactly what kind of people are who here the Gospel. Rather then posting the parable itself, I'm only going to post His explanation of what it means and then we'll discuss that. This is one that really helped me understand that there are actually two kinds of "believers" or "saved" people.
Matthew 13:18–23, “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful.
But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
Jesus explains that when the Gospel is preached that people will respond in one of 4 ways to it. The first two ways He describes are ways that don't lead to salvation; the last two are ways in which a person is saved, but their way of dealing with their salvation is different which produces two different kinds of saved people in the Church.
The first group hears the Gospel but doesn't understand it. (the seed that fell on the path) They're blinded by Satan but the reason they are blinded by him is because of the persons stubborn desire not to turn to God. If their sinful stubbornness not to turn to God hadn't been there, then God would have removed the blinders from their eyes. We know this because of what Jesus explained in the previous passages. He was referring to:
Matthew 13:15, For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’
Isaiah 6:9–10, He said, “Go and tell this people: “ ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes.Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”
So Satan is allowed to blind them due to that and they remain unsaved.
The second group (stony or rocky ground) really only partially understands the message but they appreciate it and want to be saved. The reason I say they partially understand is because the problem is that they're trying to follow the teaching in their own strength. The reason they're doing it in their own strength is because they have no root, or no "foundation" for their salvation. Remember when we discussed what the foundation of our faith is and how we get it and are to build it up through study and prayer? For those who don't recall or haven't read that study, our foundation is Jesus Himself. We did a very good study about the foundation and all it means starting with post 2 in the study: Stress,worry,fear etc & the Christian You can follow all the "rules" (if you want to call them that) in the bible, but if you don't have that firm foundation in Christ, meaning having Him dwelling in you and understanding at least the basics of your faith, then your faith cannot be real and you cannot be saved. The way this shows up in lives is that when troubles come (and they surely will) their faith doesn't stand up to the test and is washed away by the storm. Let me quote a very little bit of that study here just to make sure everyone understands what I'm talking about:
In other words, the people in the rocky ground group, believed the message but didn't ever place their faith in Jesus. They had head knowledge, but no heart knowledge and so are unsaved. You can find the people from this group in church too and it can be hard to tell them from those who are saved, at least until they start going through trials. Once that happens, they're the ones who apparently "fall away". As you can see though, they really didn't fall away, because they were never saved to begin with.
Now is when it got really interesting to me! This third group is the group in the thorns. They respond to the Gospel and believe. They ask to be saved and are in fact saved. BUT they don't respond to the Holy Spirit wanting to change them, so they either bear very little or no fruit at all. It's like they turn their brains off after the salvation part is taught them. They want that free ticket to heaven but they're not interested in becoming more like Christ or anything that goes along with that. They may crack open their bibles occasionally or even dutifully read it 15 minutes a day. They may attend church every Sunday, but that's about as far as they ever go, unless they get roped into helping out in some ministry or other because they feel too embarrassed to say no. They can seem to "walk the walk" and they certainly learn to "talk to the talk", but there is no real growing personal relationship with the Lord. Mainly they live quite worldly lives, not much different at all from those that aren't saved.
I see it like this: Let's say I'm sitting in a waiting room and I start talking to the person beside me, "Joe". We spend the hour waiting talking to each other and I get to feel like I know him and he feels the same way about me. Because we've met each other and had some little conversation there is now a personal relationship between us.
Now I have some choices to make about Joe. I can pursue that relationship with him and by taking time to give him a call or write to him or meet him for coffee or whatever our relationship will grow.
Or I can choose to simply leave the relationship the way it is and not take it any further. Joe might call me or come by a number of times, but I'm always busy and don't have time to spend with him, so our relationship suffers.
That first meeting would be similar to each of us when we meet Jesus personally and are saved. These people in the above "thorn" group have that kind of personal relationship with Jesus. They've met Him and talked to him a short while but that's it. They're much too busy to consider taking time out of their day consistently and diligently in order to develop that relationship further. They are saved though because God is true to His Word, so they will live with us in Heaven. What they don't seem to realize is that there will be a pretty big gulf between them and those of us who are in the last group. We may all be in Heaven, but there will be a big difference between us.
Then there's the last group, the good ground. That would be us. These are the people who believe the Gospel, repent and are saved, just like the previous group. The difference is that they allow the Holy Spirit to work in them and change them day to day to become more like Jesus. Obviously the folks in this group can still differ from one another as to the amount of dedication they have for obedience and allowing God to change them. This group is the group of disciples, the followers of Christ; they don't just believe, they're changed and changing and looking forward to seeing the Lord in Heaven and desire very much to please Him. They cannot get enough of His Word and are constantly in prayer.
Don't get me wrong, the people in this last group have their moments of "burn out" or whatever, because after all we're still human; but for the most part they live for the Lord. They're pretty easy to tell apart from those who aren't saved.
As I said, this really helped me understand there there really can be "believers" that have no fruit or very little. Of course there are many other passages that teach this as well, but I'm feeling rather worn right now so I'll have to take this up more tomorrow...
Matthew 13:18–23, “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful.
But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
Jesus explains that when the Gospel is preached that people will respond in one of 4 ways to it. The first two ways He describes are ways that don't lead to salvation; the last two are ways in which a person is saved, but their way of dealing with their salvation is different which produces two different kinds of saved people in the Church.
The first group hears the Gospel but doesn't understand it. (the seed that fell on the path) They're blinded by Satan but the reason they are blinded by him is because of the persons stubborn desire not to turn to God. If their sinful stubbornness not to turn to God hadn't been there, then God would have removed the blinders from their eyes. We know this because of what Jesus explained in the previous passages. He was referring to:
Matthew 13:15, For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’
Isaiah 6:9–10, He said, “Go and tell this people: “ ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes.Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”
So Satan is allowed to blind them due to that and they remain unsaved.
The second group (stony or rocky ground) really only partially understands the message but they appreciate it and want to be saved. The reason I say they partially understand is because the problem is that they're trying to follow the teaching in their own strength. The reason they're doing it in their own strength is because they have no root, or no "foundation" for their salvation. Remember when we discussed what the foundation of our faith is and how we get it and are to build it up through study and prayer? For those who don't recall or haven't read that study, our foundation is Jesus Himself. We did a very good study about the foundation and all it means starting with post 2 in the study: Stress,worry,fear etc & the Christian You can follow all the "rules" (if you want to call them that) in the bible, but if you don't have that firm foundation in Christ, meaning having Him dwelling in you and understanding at least the basics of your faith, then your faith cannot be real and you cannot be saved. The way this shows up in lives is that when troubles come (and they surely will) their faith doesn't stand up to the test and is washed away by the storm. Let me quote a very little bit of that study here just to make sure everyone understands what I'm talking about:
Quote:
| Originally Posted by Cindy Luke 6:46-49“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice.He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.” Here we see that the secret is the foundation has to be right, the foundation must be built on Jesus and must dug deep. I don’t think it’s a surprise to any of us that Jesus is the foundation and that it must be Him or it won’t work, but what does it mean to “dig deep”? To answer that, let’s look at the opposite first, which would be shallow. Something done shallowly is something that has been done in such a way that it lacks depth of intellect, knowledge or intelligence. So to dig deeply we need to supply knowledge and intelligence. ....Digging a deep foundation on Jesus requires time and commitment from us. It’s not something done quickly or with little thought. That really does make sense though since the ultimate outcome is quite important. In fact, it’s so important that Jesus tells us to count the cost of it before we begin. |
Now is when it got really interesting to me! This third group is the group in the thorns. They respond to the Gospel and believe. They ask to be saved and are in fact saved. BUT they don't respond to the Holy Spirit wanting to change them, so they either bear very little or no fruit at all. It's like they turn their brains off after the salvation part is taught them. They want that free ticket to heaven but they're not interested in becoming more like Christ or anything that goes along with that. They may crack open their bibles occasionally or even dutifully read it 15 minutes a day. They may attend church every Sunday, but that's about as far as they ever go, unless they get roped into helping out in some ministry or other because they feel too embarrassed to say no. They can seem to "walk the walk" and they certainly learn to "talk to the talk", but there is no real growing personal relationship with the Lord. Mainly they live quite worldly lives, not much different at all from those that aren't saved.
I see it like this: Let's say I'm sitting in a waiting room and I start talking to the person beside me, "Joe". We spend the hour waiting talking to each other and I get to feel like I know him and he feels the same way about me. Because we've met each other and had some little conversation there is now a personal relationship between us.
Now I have some choices to make about Joe. I can pursue that relationship with him and by taking time to give him a call or write to him or meet him for coffee or whatever our relationship will grow.
Or I can choose to simply leave the relationship the way it is and not take it any further. Joe might call me or come by a number of times, but I'm always busy and don't have time to spend with him, so our relationship suffers.
That first meeting would be similar to each of us when we meet Jesus personally and are saved. These people in the above "thorn" group have that kind of personal relationship with Jesus. They've met Him and talked to him a short while but that's it. They're much too busy to consider taking time out of their day consistently and diligently in order to develop that relationship further. They are saved though because God is true to His Word, so they will live with us in Heaven. What they don't seem to realize is that there will be a pretty big gulf between them and those of us who are in the last group. We may all be in Heaven, but there will be a big difference between us.
Then there's the last group, the good ground. That would be us. These are the people who believe the Gospel, repent and are saved, just like the previous group. The difference is that they allow the Holy Spirit to work in them and change them day to day to become more like Jesus. Obviously the folks in this group can still differ from one another as to the amount of dedication they have for obedience and allowing God to change them. This group is the group of disciples, the followers of Christ; they don't just believe, they're changed and changing and looking forward to seeing the Lord in Heaven and desire very much to please Him. They cannot get enough of His Word and are constantly in prayer.
Don't get me wrong, the people in this last group have their moments of "burn out" or whatever, because after all we're still human; but for the most part they live for the Lord. They're pretty easy to tell apart from those who aren't saved.
As I said, this really helped me understand there there really can be "believers" that have no fruit or very little. Of course there are many other passages that teach this as well, but I'm feeling rather worn right now so I'll have to take this up more tomorrow...
Re: Saved?
Today let's look some more at salvation. But before we do this, I want to remind everyone about how to read and study your bible. The reason for this is that we're always going to come across things we don't understand or that might scare us. The wonderful thing is to know that we don't have to worry because we have the Holy Spirit to teach us and to lead us into all truth. (as long as we're saved). That doesn't mean though that we don't have to put forth some effort too, starting with actually studying our bibles (the whole bible not just the new testament!) and talking to the Lord about what we're studying and asking Him questions. The bible will always interpret itself. Therefore we never have to interpret it. The way God does this is simple. When you come to a verse you have a problem with, or just one you want to know more about, you look up every verse that could possibly have anything at all to do with it. This is where good concordances and commentaries and things like that come in. Because besides just telling you what they think a verse means, often a commentary will give you more cross references to check out. Keep in mind too when you are reading commentaries that you should never simply accept what they have to say as being "the truth". They are not infallible, only God's Word is. Keep in mind as you're looking up and studying all these other verses that God's Word will NEVER contradicts itself either. Sometimes it does seem to, but only until we figure out what He's actually saying by checking out those other verses! So first make sure you are reading the verse's in context and then find out what else God has to say about that subject. The better you know the whole Bible the better you'll understand everything. If you're new at this, please see this thread which explains more about it: How to Read, Study and Understand the Bible
Re: Saved?
Now, if you're like me I can just imagine the question you're dying to ask...what about Judas???? This may sound like a glib answer, but it is the truth, glib or not, and I believe I can prove it. At least I did to my satisfaction. I think one of the reasons the Lord had things happen the way He did was just so we'd have this example to reassure us.
First I find it very interesting that Judas was with the Lord for a several years and yet never became saved. Not only that, but he "talked the talk" and "walked the walk" as the saying goes. So most of the time, to all outward appearances, he seemed no different then any other disciple. The important words in that sentence are "outward appearances" though. Remember, the Lord sees what's in our hearts. Outward appearances don't matter to Him! Let's take a little closer look at Judas as we review some of the things that the Lord tells us that we can expect at salvation.
I think one of the first things that jumped out at me was this: (all scripture is from the NIV unless otherwise stated)
John 12:4–6, But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.
Keep in mind that this happened the week before Jesus was crucified, so this was at the end of His ministry, not at the beginning. When people are saved, they are changed and become a new person. For some the initial change is just huge and for others it's a seemingly small change; but for all that change continues until the day we die. (Rather then posting all the verses that support this, I'll simply assume you know them but if you'd like examples all you need to do is ask and I'll provide them) The fact that this was after Judas had been with Jesus a long time and that instead of changing for the better, he had continued his old habits of stealing is very telling.
As the treasurer for the disciples, the collected money was used to support them--buy their food, clothes, a bed to sleep in sometimes, etc. We can see from the scriptures that not only was Judas stealing money meant to support them all, but that he was doing so to get things just for himself. He was being "selfish" which is most definitely not a fruit of the spirit! Judas quite obviously put himself, his needs, and his wants ahead of everyone and everything else. That's very much like most of us are before we're saved. But the Lord tells us that we are to put others first and before others we are to put God. So the chain would be: God, your spouse, your children and the rest of your family, all others who are saved, everyone else that's left, and finally, last, yourself. The more someone grows in spiritual maturity, the more we will see that being lived out. We can see from that verse that Judas was a fake. He wasn't really living the life of a person who was saved, he was just going through empty motions.
The other sin that this shows is the sin of greed. So we see greed, selfishness, lying (I'm quite sure he didn't volunteer the information that he was stealing from them to the other disciples) and stealing. These are not things that would be done by someone who was saved.
Matthew 26:14–16, Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests and asked, “What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?” So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.
In the above passage we see that Judas planned to betray Jesus and he wanted to get a little something for himself out of it, above and beyond the recognition of being the one to do their bidding. Again not a trait of someone who's been saved. This is not a picture of someone with unrealistic ideals trying to do "the right thing" as some would have us believe.
John 13:2, The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.
Notice in this verse that one little word "already". We can see from this that Jesus had been possessed by the devil for some time already before carrying out his little scheme.
Matthew 26:25, Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?” Jesus answered, “Yes, it is you.”
This wasn't a surprise to Jesus though. He knew all abut it and had known before he ever picked Judas as an apostle. I'd also like to point out one other thing about this. We know for sure that Judas was possessed by the devil because the Bible comes straight out and says so. We also know that someone who is saved cannot be possessed by a demon or Satan. They can be harassed, but not possessed, so this also shows that Judas was never saved.
John 6:70–71, Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
Again we see that Jesus wasn't surprised about this. Further however, Jesus again states he is possessed. This isn't something a Jew would ever say lightly in those days and Jesus certainly wouldn't have said it if he didn't mean exactly what He said.
Mark 14:43–45, Just as he was speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, appeared. With him was a crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests, the teachers of the law, and the elders. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him and lead him away under guard.” Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Rabbi!” and kissed him.
Notice that Judas led them straight to Jesus. There was no doubt, no hesitation, no second thoughts. Again this is not the character of a saved person.
NIV Matthew 27:3–4, When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.” “What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”
This is the big one that often throws us off. People often misinterpret this to think it means Judas "repented", but the fact is, he didn't repent, not in the way we mean the word when we talk about repenting from our sins anyway. Let me post it in a couple of other versions so we can get a better feel for what he actually said:
ESV Matthew 27:3–4, Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.”
KJV Matthew 27:3–4, Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
NET Matthew 27:3–4, Now when Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus had been condemned, he regretted what he had done and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders, saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood!” But they said, “What is that to us? You take care of it yourself!”
That word that's translated "repented" or "changed his mind" or "regretted what he'd done" etc. actually does mean all those things but it doesn't mean "repent" the way it's used when talking about someone "repenting to salvation". The word used in this verse is metamelomai, “to regret”; the term the bible always uses for repentance that leads to salvation is metanoia. The big difference between the two terms is that the one used here simply means he regretted what he did; while the other term, the one used in connection with salvation means repenting (regretting) one's actions (sins) which leads to a change in how you live. So basically it's saying that while Jesus felt bad about it, he didn't feel badly enough to change anything and would most likely do it again if the situation arose.
Shortly after this Judas hanged himself and was lost forever, just as Jesus told us:
NIV John 17:12, While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
ESV John 17:12, While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
This too confuses some people and makes them think Judas was saved or else how could Jesus say He'd "lost" him? If you look closely at what Jesus actually said, you'll see the Truth though. I'll give you a hint: How did Jesus "keep them"? He kept them in His Father's Name, right? The only way He could do that is if they were saved. Since He couldn't "keep" Judas that way because Judas wasn't saved, He "lost" him. So as you can see, instead of "proving Judas was saved", this passage actually does the opposite. It proves that Judas was never saved. (I posted the passage in a couple of translations so you could better see why someone who is kept "in the Father's Name" is saved.) As we can see from all of this, Judas was never born again, he was never saved. He wouldn't even call Jesus "Lord" but instead would only call Him "Rabbi" or "teacher". The day will come though when even he will bend his knee and confess that Jesus is in fact Lord.
First I find it very interesting that Judas was with the Lord for a several years and yet never became saved. Not only that, but he "talked the talk" and "walked the walk" as the saying goes. So most of the time, to all outward appearances, he seemed no different then any other disciple. The important words in that sentence are "outward appearances" though. Remember, the Lord sees what's in our hearts. Outward appearances don't matter to Him! Let's take a little closer look at Judas as we review some of the things that the Lord tells us that we can expect at salvation.
I think one of the first things that jumped out at me was this: (all scripture is from the NIV unless otherwise stated)
John 12:4–6, But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.
Keep in mind that this happened the week before Jesus was crucified, so this was at the end of His ministry, not at the beginning. When people are saved, they are changed and become a new person. For some the initial change is just huge and for others it's a seemingly small change; but for all that change continues until the day we die. (Rather then posting all the verses that support this, I'll simply assume you know them but if you'd like examples all you need to do is ask and I'll provide them) The fact that this was after Judas had been with Jesus a long time and that instead of changing for the better, he had continued his old habits of stealing is very telling.
As the treasurer for the disciples, the collected money was used to support them--buy their food, clothes, a bed to sleep in sometimes, etc. We can see from the scriptures that not only was Judas stealing money meant to support them all, but that he was doing so to get things just for himself. He was being "selfish" which is most definitely not a fruit of the spirit! Judas quite obviously put himself, his needs, and his wants ahead of everyone and everything else. That's very much like most of us are before we're saved. But the Lord tells us that we are to put others first and before others we are to put God. So the chain would be: God, your spouse, your children and the rest of your family, all others who are saved, everyone else that's left, and finally, last, yourself. The more someone grows in spiritual maturity, the more we will see that being lived out. We can see from that verse that Judas was a fake. He wasn't really living the life of a person who was saved, he was just going through empty motions.
The other sin that this shows is the sin of greed. So we see greed, selfishness, lying (I'm quite sure he didn't volunteer the information that he was stealing from them to the other disciples) and stealing. These are not things that would be done by someone who was saved.
Matthew 26:14–16, Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests and asked, “What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?” So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.
In the above passage we see that Judas planned to betray Jesus and he wanted to get a little something for himself out of it, above and beyond the recognition of being the one to do their bidding. Again not a trait of someone who's been saved. This is not a picture of someone with unrealistic ideals trying to do "the right thing" as some would have us believe.
John 13:2, The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.
Notice in this verse that one little word "already". We can see from this that Jesus had been possessed by the devil for some time already before carrying out his little scheme.
Matthew 26:25, Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?” Jesus answered, “Yes, it is you.”
This wasn't a surprise to Jesus though. He knew all abut it and had known before he ever picked Judas as an apostle. I'd also like to point out one other thing about this. We know for sure that Judas was possessed by the devil because the Bible comes straight out and says so. We also know that someone who is saved cannot be possessed by a demon or Satan. They can be harassed, but not possessed, so this also shows that Judas was never saved.
John 6:70–71, Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
Again we see that Jesus wasn't surprised about this. Further however, Jesus again states he is possessed. This isn't something a Jew would ever say lightly in those days and Jesus certainly wouldn't have said it if he didn't mean exactly what He said.
Mark 14:43–45, Just as he was speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, appeared. With him was a crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests, the teachers of the law, and the elders. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him and lead him away under guard.” Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Rabbi!” and kissed him.
Notice that Judas led them straight to Jesus. There was no doubt, no hesitation, no second thoughts. Again this is not the character of a saved person.
NIV Matthew 27:3–4, When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.” “What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”
This is the big one that often throws us off. People often misinterpret this to think it means Judas "repented", but the fact is, he didn't repent, not in the way we mean the word when we talk about repenting from our sins anyway. Let me post it in a couple of other versions so we can get a better feel for what he actually said:
ESV Matthew 27:3–4, Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.”
KJV Matthew 27:3–4, Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
NET Matthew 27:3–4, Now when Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus had been condemned, he regretted what he had done and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders, saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood!” But they said, “What is that to us? You take care of it yourself!”
That word that's translated "repented" or "changed his mind" or "regretted what he'd done" etc. actually does mean all those things but it doesn't mean "repent" the way it's used when talking about someone "repenting to salvation". The word used in this verse is metamelomai, “to regret”; the term the bible always uses for repentance that leads to salvation is metanoia. The big difference between the two terms is that the one used here simply means he regretted what he did; while the other term, the one used in connection with salvation means repenting (regretting) one's actions (sins) which leads to a change in how you live. So basically it's saying that while Jesus felt bad about it, he didn't feel badly enough to change anything and would most likely do it again if the situation arose.
Shortly after this Judas hanged himself and was lost forever, just as Jesus told us:
NIV John 17:12, While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
ESV John 17:12, While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
This too confuses some people and makes them think Judas was saved or else how could Jesus say He'd "lost" him? If you look closely at what Jesus actually said, you'll see the Truth though. I'll give you a hint: How did Jesus "keep them"? He kept them in His Father's Name, right? The only way He could do that is if they were saved. Since He couldn't "keep" Judas that way because Judas wasn't saved, He "lost" him. So as you can see, instead of "proving Judas was saved", this passage actually does the opposite. It proves that Judas was never saved. (I posted the passage in a couple of translations so you could better see why someone who is kept "in the Father's Name" is saved.) As we can see from all of this, Judas was never born again, he was never saved. He wouldn't even call Jesus "Lord" but instead would only call Him "Rabbi" or "teacher". The day will come though when even he will bend his knee and confess that Jesus is in fact Lord.
Re: Saved?
As I said to Tricia, part of the problem most of us have with the idea that we cannot lose our salvation is that we figure we're the ones in control of things. We can even say, "well, God does give us the freedom of choice, freedom of will" and that's quite true--to a point. What we really need to realize is that in this as well as in everything else, God is the one that's in control.
We do have free will to choose if we are going to accept the gift of salvation or not, but once we have made that choice, the free will part goes out the window. Why? Because once we've made that choice, (I'm not talking about babies and children who's parents make that choice for them and baptize them or something--I'm talking about when we make that choice intelligently, knowing what we're choosing and why) we are no longer are own. Once saved, we belong to Christ: body, mind, heart soul and spirit.
If we say that we have the freedom to choose to turn away from God completely and lose our salvation then we're calling God a liar, and that's not a very smart thing to do. Let me share just a few of the scriptures that show there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation, not even deciding to turn away ourselves:
Jude 24–25, To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
Now we know what kind of "person" God is. We know His attributes: he's loving, kind, merciful, just, holy, etc. Right? Well then if God is all those things, and He is able to prevent us from falling away from Him and losing our salvation, what kind of person would He be if He did allow some to do so???? He would be denying His very makeup!
John 10:27–29, My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
That's pretty definite right there. No one can take our salvation from us period!
John 6:37–40, All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Again, very straight forward, no mixed messages in this at all. This takes care of the idea that we can willfully turn away ourselves too, because once we are saved no one, not even ourselves can take it away. If we say that someone can willfully turn away from God after being saved then we are questioning God's integrity, ability and power and adding works to our salvation. In addition we're saying that we have to trust ourselves, not God in order to be saved! I think when we see it spelled out like that, it becomes even more obvious that there is simply no way we can lose our salvation.
There are many more passages like those we could look at, but instead I want to look at some that aren't usually thought of for this subject.
Romans 8:30, And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
This verse shows us what God's Will is for those of us He saves. He has literally chosen us before He ever even made this earth! We are predestined. Once born those who are predestined are called by Him to be saved. When we answer that call, He justifies us, which means He declares us righteous through the Blood of Christ. We then continue to live here on earth constantly being changed into the likeness of His Son until the day we either die or are raptured. That day of the rapture is the day of the completion of our salvation, the day He will glorify us in our new bodies! (to learn more about the sequence of our salvation go to this study: Our Blessed Hope )
Now, did any of you notice something about that verse? The Lord didn't throw in any conditions about any of those things did He? He didn't say, "I'll call them and some will answer and be saved". He didn't say that He would save us "but some will turn away before they die so they won't make it till the end". Nor did He say He would glorify "those that were left". No, What He said is that everyone who is really saved, will stay saved and be glorified on that awesome day!
Psalm 37:28, For the Lord loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;
Now, who are the "just"? People that try hard to live right? No, it's those of us who are saved! We are justified through Christ, not through our own efforts! What does it say about us? That we will be protected forever, not "until they fall away" or "until they change their mind".
Philippians 1:6, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Here's another favorite of mine because Paul says that no matter what it looks like on the outside to us, He is confident that God is doing exactly what He said He would do which is that He will conform us to the image of His Son! Once again God puts no conditions on this. We aren't saved by grace and then kept by human effort. We are saved by Grace and kept through the power of almighty God!
Paul declares that very thing again right here:
2 Timothy 1:12, That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.
What has Paul "entrusted to Him"? He has entrusted his very soul to God just as each of us do at salvation. In Rom 8:31-34 Paul basically say that if God is sovereignty declares each of us who are saved to be forever just, then who in the world could possibly over turn God's verdict??? Do you honestly think that we are powerful enough in ourselves to tell God He's wrong? Well some of us I'm sure have been silly enough to try and tell God He's wrong, or try and tell Him that they "want out of the deal" or that they don't believe Him anymore etc. Fortunately for us, it doesn't matter what we think or feel about His decision. Once we're saved, since every single aspect of our salvation is solely the work of God, it's a done deal and cannot be "undone".
That my friends is why it's called "The Good News!" It honestly isn't "Well there's good news and bad news", it's all good! I have more I want to write about this but don't want my post to get so long it's hard for you to read, so I'll start a new post for my next part.
We do have free will to choose if we are going to accept the gift of salvation or not, but once we have made that choice, the free will part goes out the window. Why? Because once we've made that choice, (I'm not talking about babies and children who's parents make that choice for them and baptize them or something--I'm talking about when we make that choice intelligently, knowing what we're choosing and why) we are no longer are own. Once saved, we belong to Christ: body, mind, heart soul and spirit.
If we say that we have the freedom to choose to turn away from God completely and lose our salvation then we're calling God a liar, and that's not a very smart thing to do. Let me share just a few of the scriptures that show there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation, not even deciding to turn away ourselves:
Jude 24–25, To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
Now we know what kind of "person" God is. We know His attributes: he's loving, kind, merciful, just, holy, etc. Right? Well then if God is all those things, and He is able to prevent us from falling away from Him and losing our salvation, what kind of person would He be if He did allow some to do so???? He would be denying His very makeup!
John 10:27–29, My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
That's pretty definite right there. No one can take our salvation from us period!
John 6:37–40, All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Again, very straight forward, no mixed messages in this at all. This takes care of the idea that we can willfully turn away ourselves too, because once we are saved no one, not even ourselves can take it away. If we say that someone can willfully turn away from God after being saved then we are questioning God's integrity, ability and power and adding works to our salvation. In addition we're saying that we have to trust ourselves, not God in order to be saved! I think when we see it spelled out like that, it becomes even more obvious that there is simply no way we can lose our salvation.
There are many more passages like those we could look at, but instead I want to look at some that aren't usually thought of for this subject.
Romans 8:30, And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
This verse shows us what God's Will is for those of us He saves. He has literally chosen us before He ever even made this earth! We are predestined. Once born those who are predestined are called by Him to be saved. When we answer that call, He justifies us, which means He declares us righteous through the Blood of Christ. We then continue to live here on earth constantly being changed into the likeness of His Son until the day we either die or are raptured. That day of the rapture is the day of the completion of our salvation, the day He will glorify us in our new bodies! (to learn more about the sequence of our salvation go to this study: Our Blessed Hope )
Now, did any of you notice something about that verse? The Lord didn't throw in any conditions about any of those things did He? He didn't say, "I'll call them and some will answer and be saved". He didn't say that He would save us "but some will turn away before they die so they won't make it till the end". Nor did He say He would glorify "those that were left". No, What He said is that everyone who is really saved, will stay saved and be glorified on that awesome day!
Psalm 37:28, For the Lord loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;
Now, who are the "just"? People that try hard to live right? No, it's those of us who are saved! We are justified through Christ, not through our own efforts! What does it say about us? That we will be protected forever, not "until they fall away" or "until they change their mind".
Philippians 1:6, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Here's another favorite of mine because Paul says that no matter what it looks like on the outside to us, He is confident that God is doing exactly what He said He would do which is that He will conform us to the image of His Son! Once again God puts no conditions on this. We aren't saved by grace and then kept by human effort. We are saved by Grace and kept through the power of almighty God!
Paul declares that very thing again right here:
2 Timothy 1:12, That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.
What has Paul "entrusted to Him"? He has entrusted his very soul to God just as each of us do at salvation. In Rom 8:31-34 Paul basically say that if God is sovereignty declares each of us who are saved to be forever just, then who in the world could possibly over turn God's verdict??? Do you honestly think that we are powerful enough in ourselves to tell God He's wrong? Well some of us I'm sure have been silly enough to try and tell God He's wrong, or try and tell Him that they "want out of the deal" or that they don't believe Him anymore etc. Fortunately for us, it doesn't matter what we think or feel about His decision. Once we're saved, since every single aspect of our salvation is solely the work of God, it's a done deal and cannot be "undone".
That my friends is why it's called "The Good News!" It honestly isn't "Well there's good news and bad news",
it's all good! I have more I want to write about this but don't want my post to get so long it's hard for you to read, so I'll start a new post for my next part.
Re: Saved?
For example: John 15:1-17
This is a really wonderful chapter. In this chapter Jesus is speaking to those who are already saved and explaining to them the various differences in His relationship with those who are saved. He's not telling them how to be saved, he's telling them how to be in a good relationship with Him. How they can "abide" in Him.
John 15:1–8, “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
To get it out of the way right off the bat Jesus tells us that if someone bears no fruit at all, they've never been saved and since they were never saved to start with, He "cuts them off". (like Judas)
You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
This is one of my most favorite verses of all! We are clean!!! Totally, completely clean! There are no "ands", "ifs" or 'buts" or "excepts" about this statement. Those who have been saved are clean! We are forgiven of ALL our sins, past, present and future!
Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
Again, now He's not talking about salvation, He's talking about relationship. We remain in Him when we are living according to His Ways rather then the worlds ways. When we backslide or sin, we are no loner "in Him". We're still saved, just not in relationship with Him; just as my children weren't when they misbehaved. He explains that the only way we can bear fruit for Him, which is His will for us is if we remain in Him. In other words when we start trying to do things in our own strength it's not going to work. We must be in a close personal relationship with Him in order to do His Will and in order to live the way God wants us to.
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
uh oh! now does this mean we lose our salvation? Again, no! He is still explaining what happens to us both when we are living in Him and when we don't. And there are times for all of us when we're not living in Him, simply because we're still human and we haven't yet received our new bodies and had our old nature removed. (that won't happen till the rapture)
When we aren't abiding in Him, we cannot produce fruit. Our prayers are pretty worthless and we're usually living in a worldly manner at least partially. Here Jesus is giving us a visual clue to what's happening to us spiritually when we're not plugged into Him, when we're not abiding in Him. We begin to "wither" spiritually. Next, Jesus isn't saying He's going to pick us up and throw us away, He's simply continuing with his comparison and saying that those who are withered and not living in Him are like withered up branches that the gardener throws away. We're worthless to Him in that condition. Jesus knows, because He knows our hearts, that for those of us who are saved (and remember, He's talking to people that are already saved) there could be nothing worse then to think that we would be withering up and dead inside spiritually and so worthless to Him. That's why He gives us that word picture to remember it by.
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Now He goes back to when we are abiding in Him and reminds us to always remain in Him, not to let ourselves get disconnected and wither up. He tells us that as long as we're remaining in Him, our prayers are answered and we will bear a lot of fruit for Him.
John 15:9–12, “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
OK, NOW is Jesus threatening us? Of course not! He again is telling us to remember that we need to remain in Him. Then He tells us how to do that. We do it by being obedient to Him. He even explains that that was how He remained in His Father's love while He was here. He did that to show us how we could remain in Him.
I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
His last statement here about why He's telling us this should put to rest any possible fear that "remaining in Him" is talking about our salvation. He's not threatening us. Instead He wants us to be filled with His Joy. He wants us to have lives of victory and joy in His love. He can and will give us that, that was His intention from the very start, but too often people simply accept His gift of salvation and let it end there. Those people will NOT live in His joy or victory. Only those who remain in Him after they are saved will live in joy and victory!
Just to make sure there's no misunderstanding at all, I want to reiterate that we all go in and out of this relationship with Him. (when I say "we" I'm meaning those of us who are truly disciples and following Him and not those who say they are Christians but don't remain in Him. They are not in a close personal relationship with Him.)
How do we fall out of this or stop "abiding in Him"? Whenever we sin for one thing, or whenever we fall back into old worldly patterns--maybe laugh at a crude joke that we shouldn't have even listened to, allowed ourselves to watch something on TV we shouldn't have, when we stop studying His Word, when we're disrespectful to others, etc. We get back into step with Him though confessing our sin and turning around (repenting) and going back to being obedient to Him.
Finally both so you'll know this isn't just "my" idea of what this means and so you'll have an even better understanding of this foundational teaching, I want to quote from two commentaries that I think you'll enjoy reading:
The key word is abide; it is used eleven times in John 15:1–11 (“continue” in John 15:9 and “remain” in John 15:11). What does it mean to “abide”? It means to keep in fellowship with Christ so that His life can work in and through us to produce fruit. This certainly involves the Word of God and the confession of sin so that nothing hinders our communion with Him (John 15:3). It also involves obeying Him because we love Him (John 15:9–10).
How can we tell when we are “abiding in Christ”? Is there a special feeling? No, but there are special evidences that appear and they are unmistakably clear. For one thing, when you are abiding in Christ, you produce fruit (John 15:2). Also, you experience the Father’s “pruning” so that you will bear more fruit (John 15:2). The believer who is abiding in Christ has his prayers answered (John 15:7) and experiences a deepening love for Christ and for other believers (John 15:9, 12–13). He also experiences joy (John 15:11).
This abiding relationship is natural to the branch and the vine, but it must be cultivated in the Christian life. It is not automatic. Abiding in Christ demands worship, meditation on God’s Word, prayer, sacrifice, and service—but what a joyful experience it is! Once you have begun to cultivate this deeper communion with Christ, you have no desire to return to the shallow life of the careless Christian.
....The vinedresser prunes the branches in two ways: he cuts away dead wood that can breed disease and insects, and he cuts away living tissue so that the life of the vine will not be so dissipated that the quality of the crop will be jeopardized. In fact, the vinedresser will even cut away whole bunches of grapes so that the rest of the crop will be of higher quality. God wants both quantity and quality.....
....The greatest judgment God could bring to a believer would be to let him alone, let him have his own way. Because God loves us, He “prunes” us and encourages us to bear more fruit for His glory. If the branches could speak, they would confess that the pruning process hurts; but they would also rejoice that they will be able to produce more and better fruit.
Your Heavenly Father is never nearer to you than when He is pruning you. Sometimes He cuts away the dead wood that might cause trouble; but often He cuts off the living tissue that is robbing you of spiritual vigor. Pruning does not simply mean spiritual surgery that removes what is bad. It can also mean cutting away the good and the better so that we might enjoy the best. Yes, pruning hurts, but it also helps. We may not enjoy it, but we need it.
How does the Father prune us? Sometimes He simply uses the Word to convict and cleanse us. (The word translated “purge” in John 15:2 is the same as “clean” in John 13:10. See Eph. 5:26–27.) Sometimes He must chasten us (Heb. 12:1–11). At the time, it hurts when He removes something precious from us; but as the “spiritual crop” is produced, we see that the Father knew what He was doing.
The Bible exposition commentary
I absolutely must share this one because it talks especially to those of us with computers LOL
This might make it easier to remember too.
Computer networks have become important systems in today’s competitive marketplace. They enable teams of workers in different offices, at regional sites, and even from around the world to join together on tasks that would otherwise be difficult if not impossible.
One way of setting up a network is to use a central computer to handle the main programming, storage, and communication functions, with remote workstations for individual input and retrieval. This is similar to the situation that Jesus described in His image of the vine and the branches (John 15:1–10):
(1) Jesus is the key (15:1). Like the central processing unit of a computer system, Jesus provides the life, the direction, and the commands for His followers, those of us “on-line.”
(2) To be effective, believers must maintain their relationship with Jesus (15:4). In order to use the features of a network, a user must remain attached to the network. If one “signs off,” there is no more access to the central computer or to others in the network. Likewise, if we allow sin to disrupt our walk with Christ, we lose fellowship with Him and with other believers (1 John 1:6–7).
(3) Jesus wants His followers to be productive (John 15:5–8). Companies install computer networks so that their employees can get their work done. The systems cost too much to be treated as toys or to be underutilized. Correspondingly, the relationship that believers have with God was purchased through Christ’s blood, so we need to take it seriously. Christ wants us to enjoy walking with Him, but He also wants us to accomplish His purposes.
(4) To love Jesus is to follow His commands (15:9–10). Occasionally network users receive an “error message” indicating that they have not followed the instructions of the program correctly. By the same token, Jesus has given us commands to follow, and the only way to experience His life and power is to obey those commands. To do so is not only practical, but an expression of our love for the Lord.
Are you “on-line” with Jesus, drawing on His resources and obeying His commands? Is your life productive, accomplishing the tasks and responsibilities that He has assigned to you?
Word in life study Bible
This is a really wonderful chapter. In this chapter Jesus is speaking to those who are already saved and explaining to them the various differences in His relationship with those who are saved. He's not telling them how to be saved, he's telling them how to be in a good relationship with Him. How they can "abide" in Him.
John 15:1–8, “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
To get it out of the way right off the bat Jesus tells us that if someone bears no fruit at all, they've never been saved and since they were never saved to start with, He "cuts them off". (like Judas)
You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
This is one of my most favorite verses of all! We are clean!!! Totally, completely clean! There are no "ands", "ifs" or 'buts" or "excepts" about this statement. Those who have been saved are clean! We are forgiven of ALL our sins, past, present and future!
Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
Again, now He's not talking about salvation, He's talking about relationship. We remain in Him when we are living according to His Ways rather then the worlds ways. When we backslide or sin, we are no loner "in Him". We're still saved, just not in relationship with Him; just as my children weren't when they misbehaved. He explains that the only way we can bear fruit for Him, which is His will for us is if we remain in Him. In other words when we start trying to do things in our own strength it's not going to work. We must be in a close personal relationship with Him in order to do His Will and in order to live the way God wants us to.
If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
uh oh! now does this mean we lose our salvation? Again, no! He is still explaining what happens to us both when we are living in Him and when we don't. And there are times for all of us when we're not living in Him, simply because we're still human and we haven't yet received our new bodies and had our old nature removed. (that won't happen till the rapture) When we aren't abiding in Him, we cannot produce fruit. Our prayers are pretty worthless and we're usually living in a worldly manner at least partially. Here Jesus is giving us a visual clue to what's happening to us spiritually when we're not plugged into Him, when we're not abiding in Him. We begin to "wither" spiritually. Next, Jesus isn't saying He's going to pick us up and throw us away, He's simply continuing with his comparison and saying that those who are withered and not living in Him are like withered up branches that the gardener throws away. We're worthless to Him in that condition. Jesus knows, because He knows our hearts, that for those of us who are saved (and remember, He's talking to people that are already saved) there could be nothing worse then to think that we would be withering up and dead inside spiritually and so worthless to Him. That's why He gives us that word picture to remember it by.
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Now He goes back to when we are abiding in Him and reminds us to always remain in Him, not to let ourselves get disconnected and wither up. He tells us that as long as we're remaining in Him, our prayers are answered and we will bear a lot of fruit for Him.
John 15:9–12, “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
OK, NOW is Jesus threatening us? Of course not! He again is telling us to remember that we need to remain in Him. Then He tells us how to do that. We do it by being obedient to Him. He even explains that that was how He remained in His Father's love while He was here. He did that to show us how we could remain in Him.
I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
His last statement here about why He's telling us this should put to rest any possible fear that "remaining in Him" is talking about our salvation. He's not threatening us. Instead He wants us to be filled with His Joy. He wants us to have lives of victory and joy in His love. He can and will give us that, that was His intention from the very start, but too often people simply accept His gift of salvation and let it end there. Those people will NOT live in His joy or victory. Only those who remain in Him after they are saved will live in joy and victory!
Just to make sure there's no misunderstanding at all, I want to reiterate that we all go in and out of this relationship with Him. (when I say "we" I'm meaning those of us who are truly disciples and following Him and not those who say they are Christians but don't remain in Him. They are not in a close personal relationship with Him.)
How do we fall out of this or stop "abiding in Him"? Whenever we sin for one thing, or whenever we fall back into old worldly patterns--maybe laugh at a crude joke that we shouldn't have even listened to, allowed ourselves to watch something on TV we shouldn't have, when we stop studying His Word, when we're disrespectful to others, etc. We get back into step with Him though confessing our sin and turning around (repenting) and going back to being obedient to Him.
Finally both so you'll know this isn't just "my" idea of what this means and so you'll have an even better understanding of this foundational teaching, I want to quote from two commentaries that I think you'll enjoy reading:
The key word is abide; it is used eleven times in John 15:1–11 (“continue” in John 15:9 and “remain” in John 15:11). What does it mean to “abide”? It means to keep in fellowship with Christ so that His life can work in and through us to produce fruit. This certainly involves the Word of God and the confession of sin so that nothing hinders our communion with Him (John 15:3). It also involves obeying Him because we love Him (John 15:9–10).
How can we tell when we are “abiding in Christ”? Is there a special feeling? No, but there are special evidences that appear and they are unmistakably clear. For one thing, when you are abiding in Christ, you produce fruit (John 15:2). Also, you experience the Father’s “pruning” so that you will bear more fruit (John 15:2). The believer who is abiding in Christ has his prayers answered (John 15:7) and experiences a deepening love for Christ and for other believers (John 15:9, 12–13). He also experiences joy (John 15:11).
This abiding relationship is natural to the branch and the vine, but it must be cultivated in the Christian life. It is not automatic. Abiding in Christ demands worship, meditation on God’s Word, prayer, sacrifice, and service—but what a joyful experience it is! Once you have begun to cultivate this deeper communion with Christ, you have no desire to return to the shallow life of the careless Christian.
....The vinedresser prunes the branches in two ways: he cuts away dead wood that can breed disease and insects, and he cuts away living tissue so that the life of the vine will not be so dissipated that the quality of the crop will be jeopardized. In fact, the vinedresser will even cut away whole bunches of grapes so that the rest of the crop will be of higher quality. God wants both quantity and quality.....
....The greatest judgment God could bring to a believer would be to let him alone, let him have his own way. Because God loves us, He “prunes” us and encourages us to bear more fruit for His glory. If the branches could speak, they would confess that the pruning process hurts; but they would also rejoice that they will be able to produce more and better fruit.
Your Heavenly Father is never nearer to you than when He is pruning you. Sometimes He cuts away the dead wood that might cause trouble; but often He cuts off the living tissue that is robbing you of spiritual vigor. Pruning does not simply mean spiritual surgery that removes what is bad. It can also mean cutting away the good and the better so that we might enjoy the best. Yes, pruning hurts, but it also helps. We may not enjoy it, but we need it.
How does the Father prune us? Sometimes He simply uses the Word to convict and cleanse us. (The word translated “purge” in John 15:2 is the same as “clean” in John 13:10. See Eph. 5:26–27.) Sometimes He must chasten us (Heb. 12:1–11). At the time, it hurts when He removes something precious from us; but as the “spiritual crop” is produced, we see that the Father knew what He was doing.
The Bible exposition commentary
I absolutely must share this one because it talks especially to those of us with computers LOL
This might make it easier to remember too. Computer networks have become important systems in today’s competitive marketplace. They enable teams of workers in different offices, at regional sites, and even from around the world to join together on tasks that would otherwise be difficult if not impossible.
One way of setting up a network is to use a central computer to handle the main programming, storage, and communication functions, with remote workstations for individual input and retrieval. This is similar to the situation that Jesus described in His image of the vine and the branches (John 15:1–10):
(1) Jesus is the key (15:1). Like the central processing unit of a computer system, Jesus provides the life, the direction, and the commands for His followers, those of us “on-line.”
(2) To be effective, believers must maintain their relationship with Jesus (15:4). In order to use the features of a network, a user must remain attached to the network. If one “signs off,” there is no more access to the central computer or to others in the network. Likewise, if we allow sin to disrupt our walk with Christ, we lose fellowship with Him and with other believers (1 John 1:6–7).
(3) Jesus wants His followers to be productive (John 15:5–8). Companies install computer networks so that their employees can get their work done. The systems cost too much to be treated as toys or to be underutilized. Correspondingly, the relationship that believers have with God was purchased through Christ’s blood, so we need to take it seriously. Christ wants us to enjoy walking with Him, but He also wants us to accomplish His purposes.
(4) To love Jesus is to follow His commands (15:9–10). Occasionally network users receive an “error message” indicating that they have not followed the instructions of the program correctly. By the same token, Jesus has given us commands to follow, and the only way to experience His life and power is to obey those commands. To do so is not only practical, but an expression of our love for the Lord.
Are you “on-line” with Jesus, drawing on His resources and obeying His commands? Is your life productive, accomplishing the tasks and responsibilities that He has assigned to you?
Word in life study Bible
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