God has quite a lot to say to women today,
but much of what He says to us is ignored because we don't like it.
You can find women that are great in apologetics and defend our faith
against many false teachings, and yet they run away from what God says
to women because they don't want to hear about it. They don't want to
face it. The world has taught them from infancy it's ways and they like
the worlds ways. They don't want to do what God says because the
world has taught them through woman's lib, atheists, etc that God's
ways demean women and make us less then what we are. That is just so
far from the truth it's ridiculous. That is yet another of Satan's
lies that he uses to destroy families and destroy women's relationships
with Him as well as with their husbands and children. But most of us
are afraid to really open our hearts and see what the Lord has to say
to us about it.
The problem talking about woman's lib is that it has been so well ingrained into our society that many of us, if not most of us don't even realize which beliefs and attitudes we have are affected by this lie from Satan. Being human and subject to our sin nature though, we're very quick to defend any belief we hold even if we are told it goes against scripture. Suddenly God becomes "wrong" and "old fashioned" or somehow the person talking about scripture must be understanding it wrong because we don't want to give up our sinful beliefs.
For example here's a verse women hate and say it's misunderstood:
Deuteronomy 22:5 (NKJV) — “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.
There are so many false beliefs about this scripture and others with it that it's amazing! Some church's say that it means that women can't wear pants, but back when this was written, the men wore skirts or robes so it can't mean that. And no, it doesn't mean that women can't wear skirts either lol. If you study the entire subject of womanhood and manhood you'll find that God made us in His image and he detests anything that perverts that image. That's why homosexuality is an abomination to Him, as is rape, incest, prostitution, transvestites etc. What this verse is saying is very simple: a man should dress and act like a man and a woman should dress and act like a woman. Neither should try to look or act like the opposite sex. Now let me show you something very interesting about the meaning of the word "anything" (or in some translations it's "pertains to") in that verse in the original language: The word means anything pertaining to the opposite sex, and the lexicon says such as clothes, implements, tools, weapons, utensils, ornaments, or jewelry, etc.
So you can see that the verse I quoted is talking about more then just clothes, it's talking about someone who dresses as or tries to act like a person of the opposite sex. That's what is an abomination to the Lord just as much as homosexuality is, and in fact this is linked with homosexuality!
Satan has been trying to corrupt what God made since the very beginning. God made man and woman and ordained marriage so that they could create children who are holy to Him. Satan has been attacking the very roots of this since the beginning, by perverting sex and sexuality any way he could such as through rape, prostitution and incest, as well as through cross dressing, transvestites, transsexuals, and homosexuality. Through these things Satan has also obviously attacked the institution of marriage and the family.
Let me quote what MacArthur says about this:
God wants to keep a very visible, obvious distinction; because He knows that Satan will try to undo that distinction, because it's a part of abominating God. You see, when God made humanity, He made male and female. He created them and said, "They two are to become one flesh." And Satan will forever try to rub out the uniqueness of man and woman in the blending of paganism; It fostered softness and effeminacy in the man and impudence and boldness in the woman to have that which appertained to a man... Now, that has some ramifications not only in the way women dress, but in the jobs women do. ...So transvestism is an abomination to God. That's just another way for Satan to try to obliterate the distinction, try to make less of womanhood and less of manhood and blend it all into nothingness; and we see that even in the women's lib movement where everybody wants to be the same; but God never designed it that way.
Now, lest you think that is just John MacArthur's radical viewpoint, let me quote some commentaries here;
Deuteronomy 22:5 has caused divisions and confusion among sincere Christian brethren. Some have used this verse to maintain that women should not wear slacks. The word pertaineth unto (Heb keli) in the original language is used elsewhere not only of clothes, but also of decorations or utensils used by the opposite sex. The intent of this law was to maintain the distinction between the sexes. Today, it would apply to any unisex clothing that would cloud the distinction between men and women. The New Testament recognizes such a distinction (I Cor 11:3) and maintains that long hair on women was a sign of that distinction (I Cor 11:6–14). During the days of Moses, garments (Heb simlah) worn by men and women were very similar (robes), so this command was designed to keep a woman from appearing as a man for purposes of licentiousness (to deceive the man). The major difference between male and female robes was their decoration or ornamentation, and not their cut. The principle taught by this passage is that the proper distinction between men and women in all cultures should be maintained. The passage does not teach against slacks per se (or hats, shoes, gloves, etc.—all worn by both sexes), but against men or women wearing any item specifically ornamented for the opposite sex (e.g., a man wearing female slacks, lipstick, etc.). The wearing of slacks by ladies today is not an attempt to deceive men, although some may be immodest and improper in certain situations. The final criteria are that women look like females, that they are modest (I Tim 2:9–10), and that their outward appearance reflects their inner character (I Pet 3:3).
KJV Bible commentary. .
Deuteronomy 22:5 The adoption of clothing of the opposite sex was forbidden because it obscured the distinction of the sexes and thus violated an essential part of the created order of life (Gen. 1:27). It was also perhaps associated with or promoted homosexuality. The same Hebrew word translated detests (tô‘ēḇâh, lit., “a detestable thing“; KJV, “an abomination“) is used to describe God’s view of homosexuality (Lev. 18:22; 20:13). Also some evidence exists that transvestism may have been connected with the worship of pagan deities. Since this law was related to the divine order of Creation and since God detests anyone who does this, believers today also ought to heed this command.
The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (Dt 22:5).
I was thinking yesterday about why I quote commentaries and other good scriptural teachers and had to admit that I do this because I assume that people aren't going to believe me, so I figure maybe they'll believe me if I show others are saying the same thing. I'm not sure if that's good or bad yet, but will talk to the Lord about it. In the mean time though I'll continue to post what others say as well.
When I say "scriptural teachers" I mean people who teach what the Bible says and not what they think the Bible should say. They let the Bible interpret itself and don't try to find their own beliefs in the Bible. That's not easy, but that's how it should be done. Lest anyone think that I talk about this subject because I hate women's lib and always have, please think again. I was raised to think women's lib was God's gift to the world and the best thing that ever happened to us. I was raised to think that I should have a career and everything else they preach and I believed it all.
My beliefs didn't change until after I was saved and began to study God's Word. I did not like what I learned about women at first, and everything I've ever heard a woman say when I talk about this, I too said to the Lord when He was teaching me. It felt almost like God was betraying me when I first started to study this. But I continued on, because it was in God's Word and obviously important to Him. (In fact I learned later that it wasn't just "important" to Him but was foundational!) At first I didn't get very far in my studies and realized it was because of my attitude, so I had to ask the Lord to forgive me for my attitude and to create a right spirit within me so that I could be open and receptive to what He wanted to teach me. I think the Lord loves it when we pray like that for He always answers immediately whenever I do that. He immediately changed my heart and I began to learn. I discovered that instead of betraying or putting women in some secondary lesser role, God loves women and has given us some of the biggest responsibilities of all. He didn't make us less then men, but equal to men; not less, just different. What would be the point of Him making two sexes exactly alike??? No, instead He made men and women to compliment each other and work together. Neither is greater or better then the other and both truly need each other.
I'd really like to talk about this but because I know what a hold women's lib has on people today, I would appreciate it if you would first ask the Lord as I did to create a right spirit within you so that you too can be set free from the world's teachings and learn what God has to say to us and the wonderful freedom it brings.
I'm not going to get into all the false teachings that women's lib has brought to us but if you want to learn about some of the evil's they've brought to society and how they really got started etc. I've posted some about that on this thread: Women's Liberation or Bondage?
All that being said, I'll get back to the original subject of this post in my next one lol
The problem talking about woman's lib is that it has been so well ingrained into our society that many of us, if not most of us don't even realize which beliefs and attitudes we have are affected by this lie from Satan. Being human and subject to our sin nature though, we're very quick to defend any belief we hold even if we are told it goes against scripture. Suddenly God becomes "wrong" and "old fashioned" or somehow the person talking about scripture must be understanding it wrong because we don't want to give up our sinful beliefs.
For example here's a verse women hate and say it's misunderstood:
Deuteronomy 22:5 (NKJV) — “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.
There are so many false beliefs about this scripture and others with it that it's amazing! Some church's say that it means that women can't wear pants, but back when this was written, the men wore skirts or robes so it can't mean that. And no, it doesn't mean that women can't wear skirts either lol. If you study the entire subject of womanhood and manhood you'll find that God made us in His image and he detests anything that perverts that image. That's why homosexuality is an abomination to Him, as is rape, incest, prostitution, transvestites etc. What this verse is saying is very simple: a man should dress and act like a man and a woman should dress and act like a woman. Neither should try to look or act like the opposite sex. Now let me show you something very interesting about the meaning of the word "anything" (or in some translations it's "pertains to") in that verse in the original language: The word means anything pertaining to the opposite sex, and the lexicon says such as clothes, implements, tools, weapons, utensils, ornaments, or jewelry, etc.
So you can see that the verse I quoted is talking about more then just clothes, it's talking about someone who dresses as or tries to act like a person of the opposite sex. That's what is an abomination to the Lord just as much as homosexuality is, and in fact this is linked with homosexuality!
Satan has been trying to corrupt what God made since the very beginning. God made man and woman and ordained marriage so that they could create children who are holy to Him. Satan has been attacking the very roots of this since the beginning, by perverting sex and sexuality any way he could such as through rape, prostitution and incest, as well as through cross dressing, transvestites, transsexuals, and homosexuality. Through these things Satan has also obviously attacked the institution of marriage and the family.
Let me quote what MacArthur says about this:
God wants to keep a very visible, obvious distinction; because He knows that Satan will try to undo that distinction, because it's a part of abominating God. You see, when God made humanity, He made male and female. He created them and said, "They two are to become one flesh." And Satan will forever try to rub out the uniqueness of man and woman in the blending of paganism; It fostered softness and effeminacy in the man and impudence and boldness in the woman to have that which appertained to a man... Now, that has some ramifications not only in the way women dress, but in the jobs women do. ...So transvestism is an abomination to God. That's just another way for Satan to try to obliterate the distinction, try to make less of womanhood and less of manhood and blend it all into nothingness; and we see that even in the women's lib movement where everybody wants to be the same; but God never designed it that way.
Now, lest you think that is just John MacArthur's radical viewpoint, let me quote some commentaries here;
Deuteronomy 22:5 has caused divisions and confusion among sincere Christian brethren. Some have used this verse to maintain that women should not wear slacks. The word pertaineth unto (Heb keli) in the original language is used elsewhere not only of clothes, but also of decorations or utensils used by the opposite sex. The intent of this law was to maintain the distinction between the sexes. Today, it would apply to any unisex clothing that would cloud the distinction between men and women. The New Testament recognizes such a distinction (I Cor 11:3) and maintains that long hair on women was a sign of that distinction (I Cor 11:6–14). During the days of Moses, garments (Heb simlah) worn by men and women were very similar (robes), so this command was designed to keep a woman from appearing as a man for purposes of licentiousness (to deceive the man). The major difference between male and female robes was their decoration or ornamentation, and not their cut. The principle taught by this passage is that the proper distinction between men and women in all cultures should be maintained. The passage does not teach against slacks per se (or hats, shoes, gloves, etc.—all worn by both sexes), but against men or women wearing any item specifically ornamented for the opposite sex (e.g., a man wearing female slacks, lipstick, etc.). The wearing of slacks by ladies today is not an attempt to deceive men, although some may be immodest and improper in certain situations. The final criteria are that women look like females, that they are modest (I Tim 2:9–10), and that their outward appearance reflects their inner character (I Pet 3:3).
KJV Bible commentary. .
Deuteronomy 22:5 The adoption of clothing of the opposite sex was forbidden because it obscured the distinction of the sexes and thus violated an essential part of the created order of life (Gen. 1:27). It was also perhaps associated with or promoted homosexuality. The same Hebrew word translated detests (tô‘ēḇâh, lit., “a detestable thing“; KJV, “an abomination“) is used to describe God’s view of homosexuality (Lev. 18:22; 20:13). Also some evidence exists that transvestism may have been connected with the worship of pagan deities. Since this law was related to the divine order of Creation and since God detests anyone who does this, believers today also ought to heed this command.
The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (Dt 22:5).
I was thinking yesterday about why I quote commentaries and other good scriptural teachers and had to admit that I do this because I assume that people aren't going to believe me, so I figure maybe they'll believe me if I show others are saying the same thing. I'm not sure if that's good or bad yet, but will talk to the Lord about it. In the mean time though I'll continue to post what others say as well.
When I say "scriptural teachers" I mean people who teach what the Bible says and not what they think the Bible should say. They let the Bible interpret itself and don't try to find their own beliefs in the Bible. That's not easy, but that's how it should be done. Lest anyone think that I talk about this subject because I hate women's lib and always have, please think again. I was raised to think women's lib was God's gift to the world and the best thing that ever happened to us. I was raised to think that I should have a career and everything else they preach and I believed it all.
My beliefs didn't change until after I was saved and began to study God's Word. I did not like what I learned about women at first, and everything I've ever heard a woman say when I talk about this, I too said to the Lord when He was teaching me. It felt almost like God was betraying me when I first started to study this. But I continued on, because it was in God's Word and obviously important to Him. (In fact I learned later that it wasn't just "important" to Him but was foundational!) At first I didn't get very far in my studies and realized it was because of my attitude, so I had to ask the Lord to forgive me for my attitude and to create a right spirit within me so that I could be open and receptive to what He wanted to teach me. I think the Lord loves it when we pray like that for He always answers immediately whenever I do that. He immediately changed my heart and I began to learn. I discovered that instead of betraying or putting women in some secondary lesser role, God loves women and has given us some of the biggest responsibilities of all. He didn't make us less then men, but equal to men; not less, just different. What would be the point of Him making two sexes exactly alike??? No, instead He made men and women to compliment each other and work together. Neither is greater or better then the other and both truly need each other.
I'd really like to talk about this but because I know what a hold women's lib has on people today, I would appreciate it if you would first ask the Lord as I did to create a right spirit within you so that you too can be set free from the world's teachings and learn what God has to say to us and the wonderful freedom it brings.
I'm not going to get into all the false teachings that women's lib has brought to us but if you want to learn about some of the evil's they've brought to society and how they really got started etc. I've posted some about that on this thread: Women's Liberation or Bondage?
All that being said, I'll get back to the original subject of this post in my next one lol
| Cindy | June 9th, 2011 10:45 PM |
Re: What God says for women
I'm going to go ahead and post the
portion I had finished before I left today and will finish it tomorrow,
at least that way you can read up to that point if you want to.
Deuteronomy 22:5 (NKJV) — “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.
We've seen that God doesn't like it when people try to pervert the image (sex) He made them. If you think about it, when a woman dresses like a man or a man dresses like a woman, that's really lying. It's deceiving people or trying to, or perhaps trying to deceive ourselves. He made each of us exactly as He intended us to be, male or female. Both equal, but both different and he wants us to both acknowledge that and be appreciative of the role He's given us. When we aren't, we are questioning His authority, and His ability to make good choices. We're saying that maybe He made a mistake with us. Maybe He didn't know what He was doing. That too is quite obviously a sin.
He has given each sex different roles and when we try to confuse those roles we invite disaster on ourselves and bring dishonor to Him. The roles God has given each sex weren't given to us arbitrarily like drawing them out of a hat or something, or saying well I gave man this so I'll have to give women that etc. God made us different, giving each sex different attributes and characteristics so that they would complement each other and so together they would make a whole. Satan in trying to undermine God and hurt us has been trying since the beginning of time to get us to deny those differences, be ashamed of them, or anything he can to get us out of the role that God created us for.
Now, let's look at another similar passage. You may think I'm changing the subject again when you see it, but if you hang in there, you'll discover that I'm really not changing it at all.
1 Corinthians 11:3–16 (NIV84) — Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head. In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.
I want to break this up into smaller segments to discuss it so first we'll look at:
1 Corinthians 11:3 (NIV84) — Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Here's another one we women have a lot of trouble with, or at least it suggests the ones we have problems with. I love the way Paul wrote this part of his letter though, because if you think about it, he undermines our objections before we can even voice them! In fact this verse covers everything in the entire portion we're discussing. All the rest of the passage is explaining it. (which is a good thing since it's something we tend to not like very much!)
The head of every man is Christ. In other words Christ is the authority over every male. The head over every woman is man; or the authority over women is men; and the head of Christ is God--or the authority over Christ is God. We often get so absorbed fighting the idea that men are in authority over us that we don't even see that last part of the sentence. When our Lord lived here on earth (and even now in Heaven) He submitted to the Father's Will in everything. He didn't protest that He was equal to the Father, even though He is. He understood that there must be a chain of command or chaos would result and accepted that His Father was at the top of that chain. In order to avoid chaos there must be authority and submission. It has nothing to do with who's better, it has to do with function and making things work right. So for the sake of function, Jesus submitted to the Father's authority. Here are some verses so you can see this for yourself:
John 6:38 (NIV84) — For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
John 12:49 (NIV84) — For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
John 5:30 (NIV84) — By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
John 4:34 (NIV84) — “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.
1 Corinthians 15:27–28 (NIV84) — For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Now Jesus also said that "All authority is given unto me in heaven and in earth” so He knew that submitting to the Father didn't mean that He wasn't equal to the Father or not as important as the Father etc. He understood that without some kind of order there would be chaos and that this was simply the order of authority, the chain of command.
Next in the chain of command comes man, or "men" in general. This is what upsets us women so much. We want to know why they're next and not us! (there goes that sin of pride again...and the sin of thinking we know better then God) Satan has filled us with so many lies about this subject that it can be hard to sort them all out and believe me, Satan didn't wait till our generation to do this. He started his lies about this at the very beginning!
Because of the problems in Corinth, Paul knew that Satan's lies had gotten to some of the women which is why the Lord had him write this passage. They didn't want to wear their veils anymore, after all they said, we're all the same in Christ, so why should we? We don't have to be subject to men anymore now that we're saved! It sounds like they were having their own "sexual revolution" and this was their way of burning their bras. Thankfully even though this was the lie Satan was feeding them and they had bought into, they did have the presence of mind to at least ask Paul about it and accept His direction.
Paul explains the "whys" of this very well so we'll look at what he says next:
1 Corinthians 11:4–5 (NIV84) — Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved.
(this was the point I was at when my daughter arrived so I'll have to finish this for us tomorrow.)
Deuteronomy 22:5 (NKJV) — “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.
We've seen that God doesn't like it when people try to pervert the image (sex) He made them. If you think about it, when a woman dresses like a man or a man dresses like a woman, that's really lying. It's deceiving people or trying to, or perhaps trying to deceive ourselves. He made each of us exactly as He intended us to be, male or female. Both equal, but both different and he wants us to both acknowledge that and be appreciative of the role He's given us. When we aren't, we are questioning His authority, and His ability to make good choices. We're saying that maybe He made a mistake with us. Maybe He didn't know what He was doing. That too is quite obviously a sin.
He has given each sex different roles and when we try to confuse those roles we invite disaster on ourselves and bring dishonor to Him. The roles God has given each sex weren't given to us arbitrarily like drawing them out of a hat or something, or saying well I gave man this so I'll have to give women that etc. God made us different, giving each sex different attributes and characteristics so that they would complement each other and so together they would make a whole. Satan in trying to undermine God and hurt us has been trying since the beginning of time to get us to deny those differences, be ashamed of them, or anything he can to get us out of the role that God created us for.
Now, let's look at another similar passage. You may think I'm changing the subject again when you see it, but if you hang in there, you'll discover that I'm really not changing it at all.
1 Corinthians 11:3–16 (NIV84) — Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head. In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.
I want to break this up into smaller segments to discuss it so first we'll look at:
1 Corinthians 11:3 (NIV84) — Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Here's another one we women have a lot of trouble with, or at least it suggests the ones we have problems with. I love the way Paul wrote this part of his letter though, because if you think about it, he undermines our objections before we can even voice them! In fact this verse covers everything in the entire portion we're discussing. All the rest of the passage is explaining it. (which is a good thing since it's something we tend to not like very much!)
The head of every man is Christ. In other words Christ is the authority over every male. The head over every woman is man; or the authority over women is men; and the head of Christ is God--or the authority over Christ is God. We often get so absorbed fighting the idea that men are in authority over us that we don't even see that last part of the sentence. When our Lord lived here on earth (and even now in Heaven) He submitted to the Father's Will in everything. He didn't protest that He was equal to the Father, even though He is. He understood that there must be a chain of command or chaos would result and accepted that His Father was at the top of that chain. In order to avoid chaos there must be authority and submission. It has nothing to do with who's better, it has to do with function and making things work right. So for the sake of function, Jesus submitted to the Father's authority. Here are some verses so you can see this for yourself:
John 6:38 (NIV84) — For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
John 12:49 (NIV84) — For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
John 5:30 (NIV84) — By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
John 4:34 (NIV84) — “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.
1 Corinthians 15:27–28 (NIV84) — For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Now Jesus also said that "All authority is given unto me in heaven and in earth” so He knew that submitting to the Father didn't mean that He wasn't equal to the Father or not as important as the Father etc. He understood that without some kind of order there would be chaos and that this was simply the order of authority, the chain of command.
Next in the chain of command comes man, or "men" in general. This is what upsets us women so much. We want to know why they're next and not us! (there goes that sin of pride again...and the sin of thinking we know better then God) Satan has filled us with so many lies about this subject that it can be hard to sort them all out and believe me, Satan didn't wait till our generation to do this. He started his lies about this at the very beginning!
Because of the problems in Corinth, Paul knew that Satan's lies had gotten to some of the women which is why the Lord had him write this passage. They didn't want to wear their veils anymore, after all they said, we're all the same in Christ, so why should we? We don't have to be subject to men anymore now that we're saved! It sounds like they were having their own "sexual revolution" and this was their way of burning their bras. Thankfully even though this was the lie Satan was feeding them and they had bought into, they did have the presence of mind to at least ask Paul about it and accept His direction.
Paul explains the "whys" of this very well so we'll look at what he says next:
1 Corinthians 11:4–5 (NIV84) — Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved.
(this was the point I was at when my daughter arrived so I'll have to finish this for us tomorrow.)
Re: What God says for women
1 Corinthians 11:4–5 (NIV84) — Every man
who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And
every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors
her head—it is just as though her head were shaved.
Don't you think it's kind of funny that we don't hear men ranting about the fact that Paul says they shouldn't cover their heads when praying? Why did Paul even mention that? He mentioned it because it let them know that he wasn't picking on the women, he was simply stating the way things are. Keep in mind that Jewish men do the exact opposite of what Paul said here. They cover their heads when they pray so this was telling them to do the opposite of what they were accustomed to, and then telling the women that they should continue to do what they'd done all along and cover their heads. Why was this so important??? God doesn't include things in His Word unless they're important for us to know, so what is it He wants us to know from this? Let's look at it a bit closer. First, did you notice the play on words in that sentence? He told men that if they covered their heads with a yarmulke (or anything else) that they were dishonoring their "head" meaning the authority over them, Jesus. And if women didn't cover their heads they were dishonoring their "head" which is their husbands if they were married and men in general if they weren't. (usually their fathers if they lived at home still) But why did it dishonor anyone if their heads were covered or not? For that we have to understand some of the history and what was happening in Corinth. In that region it wasn't normal for men to cover their heads like it was in Israel. In Corinth if a man covered his head, it made people think they were effeminate. So to do that in Corinth would actually be breaking that command “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God. At the same time, it was normal for women to cover their heads in that region. The only women who didn't cover their heads were the prostitutes. Paul goes on to say: 1 Corinthians 11:6 (NIV84) — If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. According to OT law, if a woman was caught in adultery her hair was cut off, so basically Paul was telling the women that if they didn't want to cover their heads they should go right ahead and cut off their hair since they were dressing like a prostitute anyway. He knew they knew that and would object to having their hair cut off so he said, well if you don't like that, then cover you head! You see, the women weren't really objecting to covering their heads, they were objecting to what it stood for, just like we do now. So our objections aren't anything new. They didn't like the fact that men were in authority over them and they wanted to rebel against that. They were also rebelling against the sacredness of marriage. There was actually a Roman feminist movement that was behind that whole thing. Those women took off their veils and cut their hair so they would look like a man to protest against the supposed inequality of women and the sacredness of marriage. Sound familiar? That's why Paul began this whole portion with the statement that "the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." He was letting them know right off the bat that this wasn't something that was open for discussion, it's just the way things are. This is how God made us and unless you really want to question the right of your Creator to make you the way He saw fit, then you'd better just accept it. Paul was compassionate too and he never missed an opportunity to help people know more about the Lord, so he also explained to them why God had given men authority over women. Paul said there were several reason that God had put men in authority over women and why He wanted them to wear a cover over their heads. Let's look at them: 1 Corinthians 11:7–10 (NIV84) — A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head. First he explained that man is the image of God and reflects God's glory, which is why men shouldn't cover their heads. Women on the other hand were made from man and to be man's helpmate. A woman reflects the mans glory. When a woman abandons the role that God made her for, she also abandons her glory, or what makes her glory. She gives it up. None of us would do that on purpose of course, so that's why Satan had to find ways to make us want to give up our glory. Next Paul explained again that God established a certain order for the Church and home. The Father is head over Jesus, Jesus is head over men and men are head over women. So even though in Christ we are equal to men we are still subject to them because that's the order that God has established for us. He also made it clear that our positions are positions of partnership, not inferiority. We are one in the Lord and we cannot do without the other, regardless of what the world would like us to believe. Men and women belong to each other and need each other. Finally Paul pointed out that in a general way, even nature shows the difference between men and women by giving women longer hair. Culturally in almost every country only women had long hair. Paul isn't saying that women's hair has to be a certain length or that it should never be cut etc. That's taking it to extremes and being legalistic about it again. The important facts about this as well as the others are that God wants us to respect the symbols of our culture that show the difference between men and women. In our culture, even though Satan has had a lot of luck rubbing out the differences, it is still considered the norm for women to have longer hair then then men. So what Paul is saying to them is don't try to look like a man. Don't cut or style your hair so that it looks like a mans hair cut. Do anything else you want with it, but don't try to look like a man. To everyone he says it's shameful for a man to try and look like a woman, whether it's through clothing, head coverings or hair style or jewelry etc and it's shameful for a woman to try to look like a man. The last argument Paul gives has been a bit of a mystery to us as he says that it's because angels are watching us. Most people think that this is referring to the fact that angles want to know as much as they can about our salvation and why the Lord would be willing to die for us, so they watch our various church services etc to see what they can learn. Because of that, if women are disrespectful and disobedient and don't cover their heads, it would bring the wisdom of God into disrepute. Ephesians 3:10–11 (NIV84) — His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. Again, remember Paul is speaking to women who live in a culture where covering their heads showed that they respected the fact that their husband was in authority over them. When a married woman in Corinth covered her head it was saying to other men, "I'm taken, I'm not interested in anyone else; I respect my husband and belong only to him and I'm not the least bit interested in anyone else". (an unmarried woman covering her head showed that she was a respectful woman and not what we would consider "loose".) Those who did not cover their heads were acting like prostitutes and were in affect saying, "check me out, I like having other men look at my body, and I don't care what my husband says about it or if he likes it or not; in fact, I'm not particularly interested in my husband at all, I'd rather be with you--if I like the way you look anyway" Doesn't that sound familiar too? In our culture it's not the head covering that says that, it's the way we dress. If we're showing a lot of skin it's saying the same thing as a woman who didn't cover her head in Corinth; if we're dressed modestly, it's saying what the women who covered their heads were saying. To sum this up I'd like to quote a short piece from one of the commentaries. This commentary also gives another possible reason for Paul mentioning the angels. We don't know what was in Paul's mind at the time so it's hard to say which one is correct. Maybe, both ideas about the angels are correct. Whatever is the actual truth though, both give us something to think about: A proper understanding of this section is based on understanding Creation principles and Corinthian social customs. Adam and Eve were created mutually interdependent (v. 11). Together they make up humanity in its completed form. The order and design in their creation reveals the glory of God (v. 7) and headship of Christ (v. 3). In addition, woman is the glory of man (v. 7) in that she was created as his suitable companion (v. 9) and endowed with a nature to match her role (v. 15). These creational truths became associated with the social custom of a head covering for women, even in pagan cultures. Both the permanent spiritual truth and the temporal cultural habit then enter into this topic, the essence of which deals not with a physical covering but a woman’s submissive inner self, especially to her husband. A woman who appeared bareheaded in public was considered to be loose and immoral. Uncovered hair or a shaved head could symbolize a loose or unclean condition (Lev. 14:8, 9; Num. 5:18). Hence, these verses emphasize the disgrace of a woman’s unsubmissiveness in public worship. The angels represent the spiritual realm and may refer to the efforts of fallen demonic beings to motivate to pride and to invest themselves wherever they can inspire arrogance. True authority comes by submissiveness, and both men and women—husbands and wives—are called to learn it Spirit filled life study Bible. The important facts about this section are that both men and women must honor the Lord by respecting the symbols of the headship of men over women regardless of what those symbols are in the culture they live in. We need to first submit to the Lord about this in our hearts and then choose to obey Him with the public manifestation of our obedience to His command. It's similar to Romans 10 where we're told to believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths publicly. Here we're told to submit in our hearts and show that submission publicly. Finally, before I leave this I want to leave us with yet one other verse to reflect on: Ephesians 5:21 (NIV84) — Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. |
Re: What God says for women
Staying with the same subject let's go to 1 Timothy now.
1 Timothy 2:9–15 (NIV84) — I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. In the last passage we looked at, as well as this one, Paul is talking about behavior in church during worship. The principals apply to our lives all the time. Whereas before Paul was speaking specifically about head coverings, here he includes the manner in which we should dress. I want to quote this 1st verse in several translations because a number of different words are used in them: ESV*|*1 Ti 2:9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, NIV84*|*1 Ti 2:9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, KJV 1900*|*1 Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; NKJV*|*1 Ti 2:9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 1901 ASV*|*1 Ti 2:9 In like manner, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefastness and sobriety; not with braided hair, and gold or pearls or costly raiment; NASB95*|*1 Ti 2:9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, NLT*|*1 Ti 2:9 And I want women to be modest in their appearance. They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes. NCV*|*1 Ti 2:9 Also, women should wear proper clothes that show respect and self-control, not using braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes. NRSV*|*1 Ti 2:9 also that the women should dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing, not with their hair braided, or with gold, pearls, or expensive clothes, Because so many words are used to describe this, I thought I'd look them up in the original language and see what is meant. When you do that, you find every word used in all the various translations. All the words in each translation is appropriate and we can gain a good idea of what Paul is saying by reading all of them even though they're all basically saying the same thing. There are a couple of concepts that go with the words in the original language that I'd like to share though. One is that they describe an inner self control and a sense that lets the woman know what's good or proper; the other concept contained in the words is that what we wear is an announcement of our intentions. If you recall what we talked about the head covering, it too was really an announcement of the women's intentions to either accept God's way and God's Will for them or to rebel and instead announce that they preferred Satan's ways and weren't going to submit to authority. The same is still true about the kind of clothing we wear. It is God's Will for us to dress modestly and in the way that the Holy Spirit describes above through Paul. Yet we see many Christian women and teens showing as much flesh as they think they can get away with and pushing to show more. When we as Christians "show off" our bodies in public or even at home among friends, we are taking something that is sacred (our bodies) and profaning them. Our bodies don't belong to us anymore. For girls and young teens, their bodies belong to God and to their future husbands; For boys and young teens, their bodies belong to God and their future wives. A married woman's body belongs to her husband and his body belongs to her. We shouldn't be flaunting our bodies to others because it brings dishonor on God, on us and on our future spouse. Romans 7:4 (NIV84) — So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 1 Corinthians 7:4 (NIV84) — The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 1 Corinthians 6:19–20 (NIV84) — Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. One of the things we tend to forget when we read things like this that we don't like, is that it's not "just Paul" saying this. This is directly from our God; it's as much from God as any of the 10 commandments or as anything Jesus actually said while He was here. When we start to deny that, we are taking away from scripture and walking a very very dangerous road! Since Paul had to tell them how to dress, there were obviously problems here just like in Corinth. His next sentence confirms that for it has that word we women tend to hate so much in it: 1 Timothy 2:10 (NIV84) — but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. This verse is pretty self explanatory. He is telling the women to start acting like godly women instead of being so unruly. 1 Timothy 2:11 (NIV84) — A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. We know from our previous study on the passage to the Corinthians that Paul didn't have anything against women praying or prophesying as long as they were appropriately dressed, so why would he say this? It's because these women were doing the same thing the ones in Corinth were doing. They were rebelling against God's will for women and trying to insist that they didn't have to submit to their husbands or men in general any longer. They were being disorderly and interrupting the service to loudly ask questions and debate things instead of waiting till after the service to ask their husbands or talk to someone else quietly. It’s perfectly OK for a woman to ask questions etc. but we aren’t to be argumentative. In other words what Paul was saying that women who were arguing and making a fuss (loudly) should settle down and listen and try to learn instead. The word translated "learn quietly" actually means to be at peace in your mind and in the context it's used in means to be in submissiveness to those in authority over us, so it's meaning is more to be at peace with being submissive to those in authority over us. Now the women this was being written to weren't acting in a godly manner, they were actually being quite rude and generally causing quite a bit of confusion. We know that is not of God for God is a God of order and not of confusion. Because he is a God of order, that's why there is a chain of command and that's why we are to submit to those in authority over us. It's not "just women" either. We are to submit to all authority over us, men too. We're to submit to employers, to government and the laws of our country, and of course to God Himself. The fact that men are in authority over women is no different then the fact that the police are in authority over us. It doesn't make them better, it's just their function. So it is with men. Their function, their job, is to be in authority over us, which, when you think about it places a HUGE amount of responsibility on them! We'll get to this shortly though as I want to continue first with the rest of this passage which is a continuation of the passage that women are to "be silent" in church. 1 Timothy 2:12 (NIV84) — I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. Remembering that his admonition to be silent isn't meaning that she can't speak at all or can't pray or can't sing etc, he was only referring to them speaking out of turn and disrupting the service, helps clarify this next sentence. He isn't saying that a woman cannot teach anyone, if he was then I shouldn't be writing these studies! He again was still talking about disrupting the service as they had been lately. They weren't to disrupt the service and try to take it over and teach the congregation themselves. He wasn't saying that they weren't smart enough to do so, he knew many women who were more then capable of doing just that! For instance there was Priscilla who worked with her husband Aquila to help Apollos understand the gospel more accurately (Acts 18:26). Paul knew the scriptures very well and knew there were many women prophets and judges in the Old Testament too. If women couldn't teach in general then we couldn't even raise our children if they were males! So Paul wasn't referring to teaching "in general". If we look closely we can easily see that this whole passage is once again about submission to our husbands and those in authority over us. These women like the ones in Corinth were rebelling and Paul was telling them to cut it out and be godly women instead. These women were not only not submitting to their husbands but were also not submitting to their Pastor who God also tells us we are to submit to; and not women only but also other men! So the Holy Spirit laid down the law through Paul reminding them that women are not to have authority over men period. Yes, there were times even in the OT when God called certain women and put them authority over men, but when He did that it was not only to get the job done, but was also an insult to the men saying to them that there were none who were manly and godly enough to do the job they were supposed to be doing. In general however, women are not to be in a position of authority over men. Just as he did in Corinth Paul then explains why this is so. He starts out with the same first reason but then gives us some additional information about it. I'll handle that in my next post though as this is getting fairly long already. But I want to leave you with some scriptures about submission in general to show that there are actually quite a few that we are to submit to: Romans 13:1–2 (NIV84) — Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 1 Corinthians 16:15–16 (NIV84) — You know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the saints. I urge you, brothers, to submit to such as these and to everyone who joins in the work, and labors at it. Ephesians 5:21 (NIV84) — Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Ephesians 5:22 (NIV84) — Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. Ephesians 5:24 (NIV84) — Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Hebrews 13:17 (NIV84) — Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. James 4:7 (NIV84) — Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 1 Peter 2:13–18 (NIV84) — Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king. Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. |
Re: What God says for women
1 Timothy 2:12 (NIV84) — I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
Before we continue, I know I should address the idea here that women should not be pastors because I'm sure others are wondering how I feel about that. To be honest, it doesn't matter how I feel lol, it only matters what God says. But in all fairness I'll tell you that this is something that has concerned me for a long time and I've studied it at length. Both sides have some very good arguments and I've found myself wavering back and forth on this over the years. What I always wind up coming back to is this verse and the ones following. I simply do not see any way to get around them without defying God. So for myself I don't think women should be in places of authority over men in the church. It's not that we aren't capable of understanding scripture or of preaching a sermon etc, but being a pastor is much more then that and can include being in authority over others including men--unless of course you have a church that only has women in it. The verses the Holy Spirit wrote through Paul that we've already studied about submission and the ones we are about to study really are the bottom line on this subject. At least they are for me. So let's take a look at the reasons we are given as to why men are in authority over women according to God's Ways. 1 Timothy 2:13 (NIV84) — For Adam was formed first, then Eve. Paul begins here with the argument of creation just as he did in 1 Cor. 11:8-10 which we've already studied. Adam was made first, then Eve. We joke and say it wasn't Adam and then Steve, but it also wasn't Eve and then Adam. It's not just that Adam "happened" to be created first, in the first place we know that God doesn't do anything by chance, so this was done with purpose. It's also though that when Adam was made, God gave him authority even before Eve was made. Genesis 2:20–22 (NIV84) — So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. So besides the fact that Adam was created first, and given authority, we also have the fact that Eve was created to be his helper. Equal to him, but with a different function then he had. These are all things though that Paul had already covered. I just wanted to point these out since I didn't actually show the scriptures last time. Then, instead of covering the same ground as before, he takes us bit deeper next. 1 Timothy 2:14 (NIV84) — And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. Ouch! That hurt didn't it? But it's also true. Let's take a closer look shall we? You can go back to Genesis and read the whole account yourself if you'd like to. I'm just going to quote a few key verses from it for us. Genesis 3:1 (NIV84) — Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” Genesis 3:6 (NIV84) — When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Genesis 3:13 (NIV84) — Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” Genesis 3:17 (NIV84) — To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat of it,’ “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It's pretty easy to see here that Eve was the one that was deceived, she even admits it when she says "the serpent deceived me". Unlike Eve, Adam wasn't deceived by anything Satan said, he took and ate the fruit because his wife wanted him to, knowing it was a sin. Genesis 3:16 (NIV84) — To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” It would take too long to cover all that God's curse did because of what happened. God gives us the specifics in Genesis 3, but for now I'm just going to talk about how if affected us; how it affects women. Prior to Adam's sin, there was no decay on the earth or in either Adam or Eve's bodies. Childbirth would have been almost painless for her. Now though God says that women will now have much more pain in childbirth but it's the next part that can be confusing. The word “desire” is only used 2 other times in the OT (Gen. 4:7, where sin “longs” to have mastery over Cain;& Song 7:10, where the man’s longing for his beloved is described) So what this is saying is that the fall has produced a distortion in God's order or the way He wants things done. Prior to the fall, Adam was the head of his wife. He was the authority over her. God didn't tell Eve about His rule about not eating that fruit, He told Adam and Adam told her. So when she ate it anyway, she was being disobedient to both God and her husband. She was rebelling against God's role for her. This sin changed everything for us all including how we relate to men and to our husbands. Basically what it means is that,instead of it being the norm for people to relate to each other God's Way, now the norm will be for women to rebel against their husbands authority and men will either misuse their authority or rebel against being that authority. To clarify, before the fall, men and women were perfectly related to each other. The fall caused the relationship between men and God and women and God, and the relationship between men and women to become distorted by sin. Jesus is just so incredible. We know He is the role model for our lives regardless of our gender, and that's because His life perfectly shows us the the perfect attitude of servant leadership which is the man's role and the perfect selfless submission which is the woman's role. You can see this easily in Eph. 5:23–27; and Phil. 2:5–8 among other places. I'd also like to quickly share a couple of other verses that pertain to this: 1 Peter 3:7 (NIV84) — Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers. Did you notice the three little words, "in the same way"? Here Paul is of course referring to what he was talking about before this sentence and prior to this verse he was talking about women being submissive to their husbands. But this is not saying that men should be submissive to their wives, but rather that they should submit in humility to the good of the marriage. In other words, here as well as many other verses, men are told that they are not to be tyrants over us but rather that they should treat us with the utmost respect and love and that what they want is not the objective of their headship, but rather the objective of it is to have a good, loving marriage that glorifies Christ. I just wanted to throw this in here to remind us that although we are focusing on what God tells women right now that He also has just as much instruction for men about us. God is very concerned with how we are treated. Unfortunately that doesn't mean that all men will treat their wives correctly the way God tells them too. I would hope that by now we would know though that while we may frequently be let down by other people, that doesn't mean that God has let us down. just as we women are not perfect mirrors reflecting our Lord, neither are men. Eve's decision to try and exercise authority over her husband brought disaster, not just on her but on all of us. If nothing else this should show us just how important it is for us to obey God and abide in the role He has given us. Let's go on to the last verse in this section now: 1 Timothy 2:15 (NIV84) — But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. This verse can be quite confusing but if you remember the "rules" for studying the bible it helps. Remember that the bible cannot and will not contradict itself, therefore we know that Paul is not saying that having babies saves women. He must be saying something else about salvation. The next rule is to always take the context into consideration. When we do that here we know that Paul has been talking to women that were rebelling against God's ordained laws and His roles for women. But these women loved the Lord and wanted to please Him, which is why they wrote and asked him about their questions. So here he is telling them that by being obedient to God and submitting to their husbands both in their hearts as well as by the clothing they wear and by their actions, as a public demonstration of their faith in Christ, they would be "working out their salvation" like we are told to do in Philippians 2:12. Philippians 2:12–13 (NIV84) — Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. This verse as we've discussed in other studies, has nothing to do with salvation by works. Instead he is simply saying that we should show (work out) in our daily lives what God has been working within us. We are not told to work "for" our salvation but rather to work "out" the salvation we already have. In other words let it show in our lives. This is some of the fruit that others can see that shows that we are saved. To make sure there is no misunderstanding about this verse let me share what a commentary says about it: The verb “work out” carries the meaning of “work to full completion,” such as working out a problem in mathematics. In Paul’s day it was also used for “working a mine,” that is, getting out of the mine all the valuable ore possible; or “working a field” so as to get the greatest harvest possible. The purpose God wants us to achieve is Christlikeness, “to be conformed to the image of His Son” (Rom. 8:29). Wiersbe, W. W. (1996). The Bible exposition commentary (Php 2:12). So going back to our original verse 1 Timothy 2:15 (NIV84) — But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. Paul is telling us that if we are obedient and submit to our husbands, to those in authority over us, in faith, love and holiness with propriety, that we will be working out our salvation so that others can see Jesus in us. I previously wrote quite a lot about this verse in this thread if you'd like to look at it: women will be saved through childbearing I'll end this for today as it's getting fairly long again, but I do have a testimony that I want to share with you as well. I think I'll make that a separate post though. |
Re: What God says for women
Secondly for today as I said, I have a testimony I'd like to share as well:
God Cares for Women Eta Linnemann In my preconversion life I bitterly fought for women’s equality in “spiritual office.” The thorn of embitterment was ever driven into me anew by my so-called “brothers in ministry,” especially by those who were my mental inferiors and possessed no other merit than the privilege of wearing trousers on the basis of their physical constitution. If my achievements had not been any better than theirs, I would not have made it even into the position in which I had to bear, of all things, the life-long title of “lady curate (assistant),” while my male colleagues after one to two years exchanged the title of “curate” for that of “pastor.” At the general conventions I was wounded with unkind regularity by such “brothers” in ministry in that at least one of them, or more likely an entire group, apprised me of the fact that the problem of women in ministry would indeed be solved if each of the women would marry a minister. That was the twofold wounding. Had I completed an entire course of theological study, including the two theological barrier examinations and even taken a doctor’s degree, only to engage myself with children and kitchens as the wife of a minister? Even if I had wanted that-wouldn’t I have only had the remotest possibility for it, now that a considerable portion of the men in my own age group had been killed during the Second World War on the battlefields of Europe? My dear sisters, I felt that the fight for equal rights for women had been entrusted to me, along with the pain that these inequities caused. This fight was terminated with my preconversion life because now I am prepared to submit myself to God’s Word—even to that which stands written therein concerning the woman. The suffering, however, was not yet ended thereby. It hurt just as badly when a “ministering brother” made it clear to the sisters, with arrogance and a pasha’s behavior, that the assignment of all women was to work with their hands and to serve the brothers with their time and resources. Perhaps later the Lord would give women a prophetic office. That the “ministering brother” had made it up to cook in his former life, whereas the sister had made it to a double doctorate in theology and a professorship was only marginally noted. The reaction I faced was a rebellion, albeit resisted, against this God and a deep depression over my misfortune to have been created a woman. So it would have remained, had not God Himself taken up my case. I had begged Him to allow me to be done with this situation, which I could not resolve because I could find no acquiescence within myself to the role that He as Creator had assigned to me. Years later I grasped that this role was not simply identical with that which this “ministering brother” had ascribed to me. That God in the meantime had drastically interfered in the life of this brother should only be noted in passing, since it is not the most important thing. God intervened. He healed me of my bitterness and the rebellion against being a woman. Renewed by His grace, I became a fulfilled woman—happy, contented, and full of thanksgiving. Perhaps this path is not reproducible for everyone. I am not at all saying that God has the same path in mind for others, but I do desire to share my testimony as a witness to His grace in my own life. In my quiet time, I read Deuteronomy 21:10-14; through this often overlooked regulation concerning the treatment of women who had become spoils of war, God healed my heart. By means of these unlikely verses, His concern and love toward women became overpoweringly known to me. Clearly, in my own heart, this regulation had been given in the midst of the raw reality of a fallen creation. The women of the vanquished became spoils to the victors. After a centurieslong Christian experience, indeed now this tragedy is no longer the usual thing, although even in this century, it became the gruesome experience of countless German women, who were delivered up defenseless to an incited, inflamed red beast called an “army.” Among all peoples it was self-evident that a woman who had become the spoils of war could come to be used at will as a slave of lust or labor. But God gave to His people totally different regulations, which served to protect the human worth of such captive women. When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God delivers them into your hand, and you take them captive, and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. And it shall be, if you have no delight in her, then you shall set her free, but you certainly shall not sell her for money; you shall not treat her brutally, because you have humbled her. (Deut. 21:10-14) What tenderness and sympathetic understanding call out from this admonition! The victor was not allowed to rush upon booty; he had to approach the prisoner of war with respect. He had to decide whether to retain her as worker or to take her as wife. Everything else was excluded. If he should take her as wife, he was henceforth not allowed to treat her as a prisoner. He must provide her with clothing because she was supposed to lay aside the clothing of her captivity. He was to allow her a full month of mourning, during which she was to be permitted to mourn and weep, according to proper decorum, for all of the relatives she lost in the war. How God knows our feelings; how He respects them! With what love has He arranged the individual details that led to the restoration of the woman! She should be permitted to become whole again. She should have the opportunity to earn a positive attitude from her proprietor, who would perhaps then want to become her husband. The respect with which he had to treat this woman made marriage possible and even constituted the prerequisite for her success. With what love and care had God personally taken precaution in the case of the failure of this marriage, which indeed stood beneath particular burdens because it took place across national and cultural lines! How He lovingly took up the woman Himself, guarded against her being reduced from the position of wife to that of bondslave, and also did not permit her to be treated as an object from which money could be earned at will. Her husband was allowed to put her away only by respecting her as a free person having full disposition over herself. Just as he himself was only allowed to approach her as a husband, with full respect for her personhood, so he was only allowed to dismiss her with full respect for her personhood. How very much does God love women! How He respects us as persons of equal value to the man in that He has expended such care to decree these regulations concerning our protection! I can believe His disposition concerning me is that I should be a woman—together with what all that means according to God’s word-for my ultimate good. Once I began to accept His decree concerning me—to be a woman, then, little by little, I also have been made conscious of the good that He has thereby intended for me. Eta Linnemann, a former student of Rudolf Bultmann and Ernst Fuchs, surrendered her life to the Lord in 1977. A former professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at the Technical University in Braunschweig, Germany, and an honorary professor of New Testament at Philipps University in Marburg, Germany, Dr. Linnemann is the author of the definitive theological texts Is There A Synoptic Gospel? and Historical Criticism of the Bible. She lives in Germany and lectures in many countries each year. Woman's study Bible . |
Re: What God says for women
As far as teaching goes, Paul didn't
say a woman couldn't teach at all, in fact we are supposed to teach in
some instances! We're obviously supposed to teach our children and we
can teach any children we would like to. We are also supposed to teach
younger women. We can even teach men in private as long as we aren't
lording it over them, we just can't assume authority in our local
church and try to teach the congregation there. (such as doing a
sermon) Here are some scriptures to show us what we are to teach:
Titus 2:3–5 (ESV) — Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. This let's us know that we're expected to help train younger women when they're saved. We're to help them learn the Truth of God's Word and disciple them in it. We're also to help them understand how to apply God's Word to their lives. They need us to show them what being born again and living in this world really looks like. We need to show them how their daily lives are going to be different now that they're saved. That may not sound like much, but let me tell you, that's one of the most important ministries there is! I remember when I first got saved and God was my teacher. I was learning a great deal but I desperately wanted a human teacher too. I begged the Lord for one telling Him that I wanted a teacher with skin on lol so that I could see how their daily lives were different then mine was and learn "how" to be a Christian. He granted my request and sent a wonderful born again woman into my life to disciple me. I actually worked for her. She was my boss lol and I worked with her in her home taking care of a blind and mute man. So I spent at least 8 hours a day with her 5 days a week and got to see just how different her life was then mine. (Isn't God just amazing how He answers our prayers?) I was really surprised at first at just how many things were different. The way she spoke, the way she handled anger, the way she handled it when she was misunderstood or put down or hurt or betrayed etc. the way we spent time daily in prayer and bible study, the way she handled unpleasant tasks, the way she would go out of her way to help others and go above and beyond the call of duty, etc. The way she handled her finances, her home and everything knowing that they really belonged to God and she was just the steward of them. She truly had a servants heart just like our Lord. From just being with her, watching her, talking to her and asking questions, I again grew by leaps and bounds. She modeled for me what being born again was really all about and how much it changed us. That's exactly what we're told we're supposed to be doing for others. It's a big responsibility and most women don't even know that they're supposed to be doing this. 2 Timothy 1:5 (NIV84) — I have been reminded of your sincere faith, which first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and, I am persuaded, now lives in you also. 2 Timothy 3:14–15 (NIV84) — But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. The above verses show us what to me is obvious anyway from reading the whole bible. God tells women from the very beginning that we are to be teaching our children, and grandchildren about Him and about His ways. This doesn't mean that we say a little prayer with them when they go to bed, or that we make sure they go to church/Sunday school every week. It doesn't mean that you remember to tell them once in awhile that God loves them. God is dead serious about this and we should be too. This is what God tells us we are to do: Deuteronomy 4:9 (NIV84) — Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them slip from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them. Deuteronomy 6:6–7 (NIV84) — These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Deuteronomy 11:18–19 (ESV) — “You shall therefore lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall teach them to your children, talking of them when you are sitting in your house, and when you are walking by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. Deuteronomy 32:46–47 (NIV84) — he said to them, “Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law. They are not just idle words for you—they are your life. He's not telling us to have an occasional casual conversation with our children about Him. He wants us to be constantly talking to them about Him so that they hear as well as see that He is the most important thing in our lives, and learn why He is. As we walk outside we should mention His beautiful creation and then talk about how He created this world we live in. When they've gotten dirty we can talk about how important it is to be clean and what God did so we could be clean before Him. When we're cleaning the house we can talk to them about how God wants us to be clean and to be with others who are clean and how He teaches us to be separate from those that are unclean. (unsaved). When I've shared this before I've had women say to me that they couldn't possibly do that because they don't know the bible very well. Since God commands us to know His Word, if we don't know it well, then that doesn't free us from the command to teach our children and grandchildren, instead it simply means we'd better get busy! Teach them what you do know and study that night for what you'll teach them tomorrow. Teaching your children doesn't mean that you know it all and have nothing more to learn yourself anyway. It simply means you're sharing what you know as you know it. Obviously too as the child grows older you'll be able to expand on what you've been teaching them. The Jew's took this very seriously and we should too. I posted some articles about this awhile ago that you might find interesting: The Dumbing Down of the Bible and Our Kids Acts 18:24–28 (ESV) — Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, competent in the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him and explained to him the way of God more accurately. And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed, for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, showing by the Scriptures that the Christ was Jesus. In the above passage we see the time that a woman taught a man. Let's look closely at how she did this. First Priscillia didn't do it by herself. She did it under the authority of her husband and along with him. We don't know, but there may have been times when her husband was busy or working and she may have taught him alone, but even then it was with her husbands permission and under his authority or "covering". Neither of them attempted to correct him publicly either. Instead they invited him to their home and showed him what they had learned about Jesus. Apollos knew only part of the gospel. He knew what John had preached and that the Messiah was coming but wasn't aware that Jesus had already come and died for him and rose again. That's what Priscilla and her husband taught him about. Notice too that they taught him and showed him through the scriptures and that after they had done so he went on to become a great preacher for our Lord. There are a great many people we can teach and a great many we are supposed to be teaching already. In fact if we women were doing what God called us to do we wouldn't have the time to be teaching or preaching in the church anyway! God has given us one of the most important ministries there is and He's given us more then one. We are to teach our children and grandchildren; we are to teach younger women--disciple them; we are to help our husbands and care for our homes (we'll get into more about that later) too. He's also given us the ministry of hospitality which is another big responsibility. We'll talk about that area later too. I also want to discuss the women like Deborah who God did call to take on the authority that is normally a mans. We'll talk about it all eventually though. |
Re: What God says for women
There is one
very important point that I want to make clear to everyone though. God
is not punishing us by making the men to have a position of authority
over us. The curse that sin brought was our rebellion against this and men's rebellion and/or misuse of it.
This is actually one of the signs that we're living in the end times though most people don't realize it. Generally when it's talked about at all, it's discussed as we are now about what God says to women, but the men who misuse their authority are living in sin, and men who refuse to stand in their authority are also living in sin. The fact that so many men are doing one of those two things is another indication of the end times. Most of the signs of the end times are things that happened in Israel before and this too happened in Israel a long time ago. The lower the morality got in Israel and the further they got from God, the more men refused to stand in their authority or those that did, misused it. That's also when homosexuality became the big thing, as well as transvestites and cross dressers. It all goes together, which is why I stared this study with the verse from Deuteronomy. Deuteronomy 22:5 (NKJV) — “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God. When women refuse to submit to a man's authority, they are sinning against God's ordained law for us. When men refuse to be the head of the home, they too are sinning against God's ordained law for them. Today that happens a lot. In fact I would be surprised if one of us didn't know someone who let their wife be the head of their family! It's very common now days, unfortunately, even in Christian homes. Men have become so emasculated that they some simply cannot take up their place of leadership. Because of our society too, many boys and men are extremely confused about what it means to be a man. They simply don't know how to act. Someone is telling them they're wrong no matter what they do. It's no wonder that the homosexual faction has grown, boys grow up confused about what being a man means! Of course that was Satan's plan from the beginning I'm sure and he's pulled this off more then once. As I said, he did this before in Israel and the old Roman Empire before and before that he did it in Abraham and Lot's time too. At the same time, girls grow up not knowing what it is to be a woman. They too have been given conflicting views and grow up confused. Because of this the lesbian group has also grown. Such is the fruit of women's lib. I say this in all humility and shame because I raised my children in the ways of the world just as I was raised. That's what I knew and what I believed. It was only through the love and grace of God that I was saved and that He taught me my place in this world and I've learned with His help to embrace that place joyfully. Women's lib has infected the Church so much that many people have decided that Paul hated women and that's why he wrote what he did. Then when it was pointed out to them that Paul's letters were part of the Bible and inspired by God, they decided that everything Paul wrote was wrong and that Paul's letters don't belong in the Bible! It's funny in a very sad way because it shows their lack of knowledge about what the Bible says about these things in the first place. Paul himself was very knowledgeable about the OT scriptures even before he was saved. Once he was saved and the Lord opened his eyes to what the scriptures meant, he studied them just as hard and gained even much wisdom from them. What we tend to forget is that all during the early years of Christianity, it was the OT scriptures that were preached to show that Jesus was the Messiah. The other thing we tend to forget is that there isn't anything in the New Testament that can't be found in the Old Testament. Just as the Messiah is preached in the Old Testament, the New Testament reveals His Name etc. So these so called Christians who decided to throw out all of Paul's letters didn't do anything for themselves no matter what they think because everything Paul taught can be found in the Old Testament. God doesn't change and His Word doesn't lie. It's very sad, but I've seen the faith of more the one person shipwrecked because of this. Thankfully, although it took years, I've also been blessed to see that God brought at least some back to the faith as they finally listened to the Holy Spirit and repented. It's also ludicrous to think that Paul hated women even if you just look at history. What women's libbers think of today as Paul hating women and putting them down, was actually liberating them! Prior to the time that Paul wrote his letters, women were like second class citizens in many ways. Not because it was God's Will, but because people (including the Jew's) had gotten further away from God and weren't obeying Him. God never forbade women to worship Him and yet they were kept away from the Temple except the women's court. They weren't allowed to participate in the prayers or read the Torah or in anything else. Again, not because God said so but because they allowed tradition and the philosophy of men to separate them from God. So then Paul comes along and says of course they can pray; of course they can prophesy! He just wants them to honor God outwardly with the way they dress when they do it! In other words, don't go to church looking like a tramp and try to act like you're holy. Your insides need to match your outside. Before that even Jesus welcomed women to travel with him and be disciples. (not one of the 12, but still included in the large number of followers he had. Disciple just means someone who is a pupil, there to learn what He had to teach them) The women that followed Jesus participated in just about everything, they prayed with the men, and served with them just as we already discussed when we talked about Priscilla. Paul treated women the same way Jesus did, with a great deal of respect! Hebrews 1:3 (NIV84) — The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Jesus is a picture for us of what God our Father is like. Jesus loved and respected all women. He didn't treat them as inferiors or make unreasonable demands of them. He taught them and offered them salvation no differently then He did the men. During the 3 years He trained the 12 disciples, He taught them to treat women the same way. Paul was no exception. Although Paul wasn't privy to those 3 years the other apostles had with Jesus, our Lord revealed all to Him on the road to Damascus that day he was saved. Because Paul knew scripture so well it probably wasn't difficult for our Lord to show Him all that He had taught the other disciples. Regardless of how the Lord taught him though, he was certainly a quick study! So Jesus and then the apostles brought a whole new freedom to women. (it wasn't really "new" since it was always God's intention, but it was "new" to that era since they weren't living the way God intended them to) Instead of being a woman hater, Paul allowed women more freedom then they'd ever had! So please don't think that God is punishing us by giving men authority over us. We have the privilege of knowing our God personally. We have His Word too that tells us even more about Him. We KNOW that God would never do anything to hurt us and that He only has our very best interests in mind. We know that He does all things for our good, not to harm us but to give us a future--a future of happiness, joy, love, and prosperity. Jeremiah 29:11 (NIV84) — For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Yes, human beings will let us down, but God won't. Yes, men will abuse their authority, but God will use it for our good and make everything work out right as long as we do His Will and continue in His ways. Yes, we may suffer at times for doing God's Will, but that's no different then the men. They too suffer at times for doing God's Will. Not because God wants us to suffer for it, but because of the sin in this world. One day we will be rewarded for standing firm in our faith and continuing to do His Will regardless of the worldly consequences of it. When we study it, God give us a beautiful picture of what the relationship between a husband and wife should be and what a godly family looks like. Just as there are many women who refuse to live in submission to their husbands, and many women who try to be like a man and be the authority, there are many men who refuse to stand in their authority and there are many who abuse their authority. Believe it or not, there are also women who abuse their submission! In other words they refuse to take on any responsibility even though that's not at all what God means! I wish that if anyone is reading this that they'd ask questions so I'd know what else needs to be said or covered, or if everyone is really getting what I'm trying to say.... |
Re: What God says for women
OK, I'll post a response, but you probably won't like my response. Does the Bible say that a woman's place is in the home?
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Re: What God says for women
Why would I not like it? I love
questions! I just wish I'd seen it earlier! Tell you what, I want to
give you an honest and good answer, so that means I need to pray and
study what the Lord shows me. (Yes, I already know the answer, but I
like to answer with His Word not mine.) So that means it's probably
going to be tomorrow before I answer this. I'll try to have it posted
by noon for you, God willing. Thanks so very much for your question and
your interest! I know the Lord will bless you for it!
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Re: What God says for women
Quote:
In this day and age.. I think most of us know someone who allowed their wife to be head of their family.. I know I do.. and it has caused many problems.. even to the point that it has caused the husband to have mental problems.. it breaks my heart even to talk about this.. I can only pray and hope that Jesus will turn this situation around.. |
Re: What God says for women
Quote:
Titus 2:3–5 (ESV) — Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. I'm not sure which translation you use so I'll quote the most used ones: KJV 1900*|*Tt 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. NKJV*|*Tt 2:5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed. NIV84*|*Tt 2:5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God. NASB95*|*Tt 2:5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored. NRSV*|*Tt 2:5 to be self-controlled, chaste, good managers of the household, kind, being submissive to their husbands, so that the word of God may not be discredited. NLT*|*Tt 2:5 to live wisely and be pure, to work in their homes, to do good, and to be submissive to their husbands. Then they will not bring shame on the word of God. The phrase I underlined in all of them, basically, "working at home" comes from two Greek words. The first word oikos means home and ergon refers to work, a job, or a task and in a few places is translated "employment". So what this verse is saying is that a young woman's assigned "job" or task is to work at home. If we compare that verse with this one: 1 Timothy 5:14–15 (ESV) — So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander. For some have already strayed after Satan. The words used there is oikodespoteo which according to all the references I have means "to rule the house". According to what God's Word says here and throughout the old and new Testament, the first and main job we as women have been assigned to by the Lord is to work at home, taking care of our husbands, our children and the home. That is to be our priority and to take precedence over everything else. The Bible is very specific about this which really doesn't surprise me considering that God is all knowing and had to know that this is where Satan would attack the hardest, especially since He told us that because of the first sin, women would balk at this and fight against it. (as would men as I stated before) When I said the bible is very specific about this, I didn't mean that it's just specific that a woman's first priority is to be the home, but also that it's very specific about what a woman is to be doing with her time. God's Word doesn't say that a woman cannot work outside the home at all ever. In the first place, not all women want to marry and have children and in some cases (not all) that's because God has given them the gift to be able to stay single without sinning against him by having sex outside of marriage, so that they can focus solely on Him. 1 Corinthians 7:8–9 (NIV84) — Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 1 Corinthians 7:34–35 (NIV84) — and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord. Now, an unmarried woman who intends to remain unmarried for the Lord's sake and is in His Will by doing this, has different priorities then the rest of the women who are married, so that's an entirely different ball game. Well, not entirely different as she is still under the authority of men such as her father, her pastor, her employer (if she's working) etc and God still has very definite things she is to do and not do. Women in God's Will who are like this though are the minority, and not the majority. God's basic plan for women is that she is to be a helper for her husband, she is to bear children and raise them to know and love Him. That's the "basic plan" you could say or the "first priority" for women. God doesn't leave it at that though. He has a huge list of things that women are to do. He even divides it down to younger women and older women and sub divisions of those so there's no doubt about what we are to be doing with out time. He has given women a tremendous amount of ministry. Because of Satan's lies though a large amount of our ministry isn't being done (and I'm not talking about just raising children) which is another reason this world, our country in particular is in such bad shape. When a woman does those things that God has ordained for us to do, she couldn't possibly find the time to work full time outside the home anyway. (I honestly don't see where she'd find the time to work "part time"!) Back to your question though. I think what you're really asking is can a married woman work outside the home full time. God says, quite simply, "No". It is not the woman's job to be the breadwinner. That is the man's job and when women do that, they are obviously in sin since they're going against God's Word but they're also causing other women to stumble in their faith by being a bad example to them, and they're taking away a job a man could have to earn a living for his family which is also a sin. Most people have no idea what God has ordained for men to do and what He's ordained for women to do. Some know parts but very few know it all, nor do they know the "whys" of it. I'll tell you here and now though that it has nothing to do with "equality" because men and women are equal in God's sight. But for a woman to be a "godly woman" and do God's Will in this life, it requires that she obey God by fulfilling the job He has ordained for her since creation. As far as financial support of women goes, God even covers how women are to be supported if their husband dies, if he's lazy and won't work, if their husband leaves them or they're divorced etc and every other possibility. None of them include the woman working outside the home full time. Our world has gone down hill so far and so fast that sometimes there's no one to fulfill the role of supporting the woman and she has to work. In that case it's not a sin for her to work as she obviously must support her children, but it also shouldn't be continued when/if she no longer has to. However, God says it's fine for a woman to earn money by working at home or even by investing or part time work, as long as her first priority is not only not compromised but is enhanced by it. In other words, her husband and children and the other things that God has given women the ministry of are to come first. Working to get "extra" money is secondary. If you read Proverbs 31:10-31 you can see what many call the "perfect wife" and she actually does quite a bit of work. Proverbs 31:16 (NIV84) — She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard. Proverbs 31:18 (NIV84) — She sees that her trading is profitable, and her lamp does not go out at night. Proverbs 31:24 (NIV84) — She makes linen garments and sells them, and supplies the merchants with sashes. She makes her families clothes and then sells the extra clothes and linens she makes, using the money to buy a field in which she plants grapes and tends. She trades food she's grown, and will probably trade some of the grapes and/or wine she makes and the clothes and linens she makes for other things her family needs. As you read the whole section though you see that her whole focus is on her home and family, not on "making money" or "earning a living" or "getting rich". It's her husband's job to earn the living and provide for her family. So the real answer to your question, "is a woman's place in the home?" is Yes, that is her God given role and one that is so much more important than anything else a woman could think of doing that it's just plain crazy that it's become "derogatory". Satan however has done his level best to get as much use of what the fall caused as he can. (remember that God told Adam and Eve that because of her sin women would rebel against their divinely ordained roles as would men) God's ordained role for women is not something that's ever changed. It's the same in the Old Testament as it is the New; nor is it something that was written because of the culture of those times. God went out of His way to make sure that men and women know what His Will is concerning their primary roles in life and it's spoken about all through His Word beginning with creation. I'd like to add here that when I was talking of a married woman working full time outside the home, I was thinking of a woman who was working in order to support her family. God has no objections to us volunteering or doing any number of things as long as our first priority, which is to be a helper to our husband and to care for and raise our children is taken care of first--by us, not by someone else. But too, we have to remember that there are a LOT of different scenarios, married woman with no children; married who's children are now grown; married who's widowed, etc. So what we have to do is seek God's Will for us, looking at His Word and all that He says about this. If we are sincerely trying to do His Will and not our own, and trusting Him instead of ourselves, we won't have a problem. One thing I hear all the time these days is that "I have to work full time or else we can't pay our bills". According to what God's Word says though, that's wrong for a number of reasons. First, He is our provider, not an employer, so we're to look to Him to keep our bills paid. Second, if our bills are so big that it takes two adults working full time or more to pay them, that's a pretty good indicator that we're paying for things we "want" and not things we "need". We could live in an apartment or smaller home that costs less. We could have one car instead of two. We could stop spending a fortune on expensive gifts for our children etc. So when that's the case, that's something we need to look hard at too. That being said however, it doesn't mean that if there's some kind of emergency that we need some extra income for AND we truly feel the Lord has called us to work outside the home for a short time to help, well, that's fine. When I look back on all the things I believed before I was saved and compare them to what God says, it just amazes me that I was so very blind before. I've heard good Christian women who know what God says and believe it, say that because of the way the world is now that they "have to work" because one income won't support their family. That too though is another lie from Satan, the world and their flesh. One income will support their family or rather it could, if she was doing what God says she should. Her husbands income may not support her in the manner in which she'd like to be supported though, so that's the real issue, not whether or not it can. Satan, the world and our flesh will use every way they can to undermine God's Will for women, men, children and the family. The more we accept and buy into Satan's ways, the worse our world becomes and obviously the further we are from God's Will for us. The very fact that we've gone so far away from God's ordained Will for men and women is yet more proof that we are indeed in the last days. It shows that people in general don't have a clue what God's Word says or what His Will or plans for us are, which is appalling all by itself. But I'd rather think that for the most part the fact that women have gone so far from His Will is because of ignorance though rather then because they're actively rebelling against it and/or just don't care what His Will is. I know for myself that as much as I've studied the bible over the last 12 years that I'm still learning something new every day. I'd love to be able to share all the things that the Lord has given women to be their ministry too, there certainly is a lot lol |
Re: What God says for women
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Today being Father's Day would be a great opportunity for the churches to begin teaching the men that very thing. I pray that many of them will do so and not just with a single sermon but with an extensive study for the men so they can really know what God's plan is for them. It would sure be a much more wonderful world if men and women were living the way God has commanded us to. |
Re: What God says for women
By the way, did anyone notice this in verse 4?
Titus 2:4 (NIV84) — Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, Why do you think that women need to be taught (trained) to love their husbands and children? Why would God specifically include that? Something interesting to reflect on today... |
| Marianne | June 19th, 2011 02:44 PM |
Re: What God says for women
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Originally Posted by Cindy
(Post 721998)
Yes it
does for sure Marianne and sadly many men don't even know "how" to be
the head of the home or what that really means. As much as we women
need to begin to understand and obey God's ordained role for us, men
also need to be taught what His role is for them and what it means. God
has has given both men and women a great deal of responsibility but the
only way His Will can be truly done is when both the man and the woman
understand what their roles really are and do their best to fulfill them
with His help.
Today being Father's Day would be a great opportunity for the churches to begin teaching the men that very thing. I pray that many of them will do so and not just with a single sermon but with an extensive study for the men so they can really know what God's plan is for them. It would sure be a much more wonderful world if men and women were living the way God has commanded us to. |
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Re: What God says for women
Since God hasn't given me a husband or kids of my own, I can only
conclude that lifelong singlehood is His plan for me. I'm 50 now, so
I'm too old, now, to plan for marriage or motherhood. Since most
marriages end in divorce anymore--even among Christians--it's for the
best, I know.
As for Christian women having careers, I will not venture to speak for most women. But I do know of two very fine Christian women--both deceased now--who loved the Lord with all their hearts, and who did a fine job of juggling careers with wife and motherhood. I'm talking about Dale Evans Rogers and Norma Zimmer. (Those of you who have watched "The Lawrence Welk Show" probably remember Norma Zimmer as the show's Champagne Lady.) Both were professional entertainers, and both were devout Christians whose husbands were also devout Christians. And they were fine wives and mothers as well as good performers. |
Re: What God says for women
Since you're single that obviously
releases you from being a mother and having a husband but it doesn't
release you from any of the other things that God has ordained for women
to do. It's a very holy calling for sure and one that's not at all
easy!
Kathy, it doesn't matter one little bit how good a job they did or I did or you do or even if every single woman ever born did it that way. That doesn't make it right according to God's Word. Besides which, who are we to determine who or what is "good"??? Neither of us know anyone else's hearts, we don't even really know our own! Only God can know that! We each have to choose for ourselves if we are going to believe God's Word or not. And if we decide that God's Word is true and that we believe it, if we're going to obey Him. For the most part people tend to pick and choose what they want to believe out of the Bible and what they don't. It doesn't work that way though. Either it's ALL true or none of it's true, period. End of story. While it's always a sin to be disobedient, there is a difference between doing something when you don't know it's a sin and doing it after you know it's a sin. God even taught that in the OT. (Numbers 15:29–31) There are severe consequences for disobedience after you're aware something is a sin. (By the way, I'm not talking about you personally, although you're included since you're a human being too, but I'm speaking in general and include myself as well.) Whenever we assert our will against God it is rebellion and I'm sure you know what God says about that! (1 Samuel 15:23) Just as bad, each time we choose to sin and go our own way it hardens our hearts a little and makes it harder to hear the leading of the Holy Spirit. It also grieves the Holy Spirit when we do that. So if we continue to sin it continues to harden our hearts. We stop hearing the Lord's voice, stop receiving His guidance, our prayers aren't answered, etc and we are no longer living in Him or for Him, but instead living our lives for ourselves in our own strength just like the world does. The only thing that can turn that around is confession and repentance which means agreeing with God that what we've been doing is a sin and asking His forgiveness as we commit to not do it anymore. What I'm saying is that we have to choose who we're going to believe; God or other humans. His Word is quite clear on this subject in particular, regardless of whether we like it or not. He teaches us this all through the Bible not just in a single verse or even just a few but constantly He asserts this. This is what most women absolutely refuse to hear so they choose the world over God. John 9:31 (NIV84) — We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will. Proverbs 28:13–14 (NIV84) — He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy. Blessed is the man who always fears the Lord, but he who hardens his heart falls into trouble. Luke 12:47 (NIV84) — “That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. Psalm 66:18 (NIV84) — If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened; Proverbs 28:9 (NIV84) — If anyone turns a deaf ear to the law, even his prayers are detestable. Zechariah 7:13 (NIV84) — “ ‘When I called, they did not listen; so when they called, I would not listen,’ says the Lord Almighty. James 4:4–5 (NIV84) — You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? |
Re: What God says for women
So the talents that God gives us women are to be neglected and
not used, just because we're women? Men can develop and use their
talents for God's glory, but we can't? We're to simply stay home and
content ourselves with doing housework instead? That sounds like a very
inferior position to me, I'll tell you! Why does God even bother to
give us talents if He's not going to permit us to use them, pray tell?
I have read the stories of both Dale Rogers and Norma Zimmer, and I know this: they both loved God, and they both stayed close to Him. Both women tried to please Him, to stay sensitive to Him. And I know that if He were displeased that they worked as career entertainers, He would have let them know that, in no uncertain terms. They were not living outside of God's will, despite what you believe. You've probably never read their stories, Cindy, so you probably don't know about that stuff. But I have, and that's how I know. I really believe that at the Bema, God will be giving them both generous rewards. I guess you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think I'll be coming back to this thread. |
| Cindy | June 21st, 2011 10:37 AM |
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Originally Posted by kgreen20
(Post 722256)
So the talents that God gives us
women are to be neglected and not used, just because we're women? Men
can develop and use their talents for God's glory, but we can't? We're
to simply stay home and content ourselves with doing housework instead?
That sounds like a very inferior position to me, I'll tell you! Why
does God even bother to give us talents if He's not going to permit us
to use them, pray tell?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kgreen20
(Post 722256)
I have read the stories of both Dale
Rogers and Norma Zimmer, and I know this: they both loved God, and they
both stayed close to Him. Both women tried to please Him, to stay
sensitive to Him. And I know that if He were displeased that they
worked as career entertainers, He would have let them know that, in no
uncertain terms. They were not living outside of God's will, despite
what you believe. You've probably never read their stories, Cindy, so
you probably don't know about that stuff. But I have, and that's how I
know. I really believe that at the Bema, God will be giving them both
generous rewards.
I guess you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think I'll be coming back to this thread. |
I hope that some day you'll begin to trust God and know that His plans for you, and for everyone else too are good, and that He really does love us. I've been praying that the Lord would give you a soft and open heart to understand and obey His Word and of course that you would begin to actually study His Word for yourself and see what He has to say. Not just about this, but about everything and I will continue to pray that for you as I always have. God Bless you Kathy and may you find the peace that only God can give.
Re: What God says for women
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OK, back to the study then. When I first saw that verse, it hit me as kind of strange, because why would someone need to be taught to love their husband or children??? Doesn't that just come naturally? Let's look at this verse in context first to make sure we're not making something of it we shouldn't. I'm going to post the ESV translation since it does the best at word for word translating and then the NIV for us so we can get the most out of it. Titus 2:3–5 (ESV) — Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. Titus 2:3–5 (NIV84) — Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God. Titus 2:3–5 (KJV 1900) — The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Did you notice how the end of verse 3 and verses 4 and 5 in the ESV are actually one long sentence? The NIV has ended the sentence in an earlier spot to make reading easier and the KJV has all three verses as one long sentence. The reason I'm pointing this out is because it shows us that everything in these three verses is related. It's all about the same subject and carries the same point across. Back to the question now, why are older women to teach the younger to love their husbands and children? Christian marriage was something brand new then and Paul was teaching the foundations of Christian marriage to both pagans and Jews. Here in these verses, Paul is continuing to teach that our lives are a refection of our beliefs. This is true regardless of whether we're born again or not. We live what we believe. That's why Jesus and the apostles taught that you would know a person by the way they lived their lives. So Paul says that the first foundation of a marriage should be love. This is of course scriptural and follows what Jesus said the first two commandments are--to love God and love others. Our society now is very corrupt as it was then too. Back then, just as now, love had taken on a whole other meaning. Love had come to mean "pleasure" and tolerance instead of what it truly was. Now, just as then, love was all about what we could get for ourselves not about others. Paul though had given the true definition of love in 1 Corinthians 13:4–7 and had pointed out that true love isn't about self and getting what we can for ourselves, instead it's the opposite, it's self sacrificing. Once again we're being told to live a God centered life instead of a self-centered life. The other thing that's different is that we tend to think of love as an emotion, or something we "feel". God's Word tells us that it's a commitment not just a feeling. So he wasn't ordering them to have a warm fuzzy feeling for their husbands and children, he was commanding them to be committed to acting toward them with love because they had been born again and were now God-centered instead of self-centered. Notice too that it's the older women that are to teach the younger women these things. Of course Paul stipulates that they first need to make sure that they too are still leading holy lives. So this is one of the ministries that we older women have. To teach younger born again women how to love their husbands and children with a godly love instead of a self-centered love. To make sure there's no misunderstanding about what that kind of love should look like, Paul lists a number of it's attributes for us: "to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands". Notice the first one is "self controlled". Have you ever noticed how often self control is mentioned especially in the NT? The reason I'm signaling out the NT here is because it's usually used to denote the kind of behavior that is a fruit from being born again. I don't mean that it's a "gift" and we don't have to work at it, but rather that the more we grow spiritually the more self control will be seen in our lives. The ESV shows 18 results for self control in the NT and I want to quote one of them from a bit further on in this chapter that shows us why it's used so much. Titus 2:11–14 (ESV) — For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. So self control is a very important attribute that we should practice and that we older women are to help younger women learn. Obviously if we haven't learned it ourselves yet, we can't very well teach it to the younger women. When Paul tells us that the older women are to teach these things to the younger women then, he's obviously referring to the spiritually mature older women here. Self control is a very important part of love for without self control love becomes self-seeking which is the opposite of what Paul tells us it should be. Next we're told the older women should teach the younger ones to be "pure". The word translated pure actually means "pure in mind and body, not just one or the other. This too is another part of love. A Christian wife is to be true to her husband (and to God) in both her heart and mind as well as her body. This shows we can't be thinking one way about our husbands and doing another. (or God either as I said before) After "working at home", which we already covered, we're told that we're to teach the younger women to kind. Paul was probably thinking of Proverbs 31 here where it says: Proverbs 31:26 (ESV) — She opens her mouth with wisdom, and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue. The NIV translates it this way: Proverbs 31:26 (NIV84) — She speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue. This is saying that she uses discretion and wisdom when she speaks and instructs. She doesn't speak out in anger etc, but instead speaks with love as the reason for her instruction. Immediately after this, we get to the last characteristic that the more spiritually mature women are to teach the younger, which is that they are to be submissive to their own husbands". And here is the clincher, the one women tend to hate as much as they hate the idea of "staying at home" the way the Lord commands--at least till we understand more lol. We've already covered this one too so again I won't go into it much unless someone happens to have a question about it. This last one though, gives us another reason why the older, more spiritually mature women need to teach the younger ones how to love their husbands. It is the nature of love to submit to the one you love, whether it be to God or to your husband. We know that because of the fall, both men and women rebel against this. That doesn't mean that we have a legitimate excuse for our rebellion though. When we became born again we were given new natures and our new nature does not naturally rebel against it the way our old nature does. So we know that when someone is rebelling against this it's because they're allowing their old nature to take over at least in this area of their lives. This is also where all those other characteristics come into play. We must be self-controlled and not allow our old natures to take over but instead nourish our new natures through studying God's Word and reflecting on it; by taking our thoughts captive when they rebel and replacing them with God's Word which is the truth, etc. So all of this too the older women are to teach the younger women. They would be covering all the things we've covered here in this study and more as they teach the younger women what it means to love your husband and children. Finally though we get down to the reason for this. The reason why the older women are to teach the younger women this and why the younger women are to obey the teaching. Frankly, I can't think of any better reason then the one given to us: that the word of God may not be reviled. The word that's translated "reviled", means blasphemed, slandered, maligned, insulted, cursed, "be spoken evilly of" or spoken about maliciously etc. In other words, when we say we are born again and that we have faith in God and trust Him, but our lives say that we don't trust Him because we're not being obedient to what He says our ordained roles are as women, it maligns and insults the world of God and God Himself. As much as I hate to admit it, when we're disobedient about this, we're actually proving by our unwillingness to follow God's path for us that we're double minded. I think this is one of the things that shook me up the most. Of course, if we weren't aware of God's ordained path for us and weren't living that way because we didn't know, that's different. But once we've been told, regardless of whether we believe the person who told us or not, or regardless of whether we believe what we've read in God's Word or not, God will hold us accountable for our knowledge and view us as willfully sinning and being double minded at that point. The word translated double minded literally means "two souled" and means having two mines about something, or two (or more) beliefs about something. It means that they vacillate between faith and doubt, between trust and not trusting, etc. It means that the person says they believe or have faith but their actions, their lives, show that they doubt God and because of their doubt they can't truly believe or have faith or trust Him and because of that, they're unstable. James 1:5–8 (NIV84) — If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does. The Lord tells us that when we're being double minded that we need to purify our hearts and come near to Him, which is basically seeking Him with ALL our hearts, not just part of them. James 4:8 (NIV84) — Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. God even gives us examples of people that are double minded so we know for sure what He means: 1 Kings 18:21 (NIV84) — Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.” But the people said nothing. 2 Kings 17:33 (NIV84) — They worshiped the Lord, but they also served their own gods in accordance with the customs of the nations from which they had been brought. 2 Kings 17:41 (NIV84) — Even while these people were worshiping the Lord, they were serving their idols. To this day their children and grandchildren continue to do as their fathers did. In regards to the passages we've been studying, we are being double minded when we profess to be born again, profess to love and trust God but while we're doing that, we're still rebelling against His ways and living the way we want to, the way the world says we should, instead. When we do that, we're dishonoring God and bringing His Word into disrepute. There's not much we could do that's worse then that. God gives His Name and His Word the highest position there is: Psalm 138:2 (ESV) — I bow down toward your holy temple and give thanks to your name for your steadfast love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. God wants us to give Him and His Word the honor it deserves. We most certainly aren't doing that when we ignore Him and refuse to listen to Him. |
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Re: What God says for women
Thanks for the study. :hug:
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| Marianne | June 22nd, 2011 02:05 PM |
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Originally Posted by Cindy
(Post 722455)
Yes, and
there's so very many that are like that too. Even mine was unequally
yoked in the beginning but I was blessed that the Lord softened his
heart and opened his eyes to the gospel. Thankfully though the Lord
knows that these kind of marriages are bound to happen. Especially at
the very beginning when the Church was first born. Everyone that was a
Christian in the beginning had converted which left many of them in a
mixed marriage since the partner hadn't converted. Because He knew this
would happen though the Lord even gives people who are in mixed
marriages instructions on how to live. I don't think He missed covering any of the possibilities LOL
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It hurts me so much to see the woman have the upper hand in the home.. you want to say something and I have tried.. but, it only seems to make matters worse.. I can only pray and trust that the Lord will work a miracle with this family..
